What is Wrong with the Church?
I’ve been wanting to read Tim Keller’s book The Reason for God. I continue to hear nothing but awesome things about it. It has been interesting to read a discussion over at Jesus Creed about the book. Chapter 4 of the book is taking a look at the following: “If the Christian story is true, why has the Church been responsible for so much pain and injustice both large and small?”
I love that Keller is not afraid to deal with some of the more difficult theological discussions. In dealing with this question Keller looks at the church as a whole and the local church as well (This would be somewhat debated, but generally it is agreed that the church is universal and local. Catholics disagree).
Keller summarizes why Christians often receive a bad rap:
Think of people you consider fanatical. They’re overbearing, self-righteous, opinionated, insensitive, and harsh. Why? It’s not because they are too Christian, but because they are not Christian enough. They are fanatically zealous and courageous, but they are not fanatically humble, sensitive, loving, empathic, forgiving, or understanding-as Christ was. … What strikes us as overly fanatical is actually a failure to be fully committed to Christ and his gospel.
On how to answer the original question, this is what he has to say:
What is the answer, then, to the very fair and devastating critique of the record of the Christian church? The answer is not to abandon the Christian faith, because that would leave us with neither the standards nor the resources to make correction. Instead we should move to a fuller and deeper grasp of what Christianity is. The Bible itself has taught us to expect the abuses of religion and it has also told us what to do about them.
Ok, now for some of my thoughts.
- I think it was Tony Campolo who said the church is like your mother who is a whore. I think that is exactly where Keller is going here. Yes, the church (universal and local) has made some huge, glaring mistakes but she is your mom and she deserves your loyalty.
- I can’t count on my hands how many people have said to me something along the lines of…”yeah I believe in Jesus, but I don’t like church.” I think this is simply a selfish statement. Jesus has called us to gather in his name. This is for our own need and to bring glory to him.
- I do not think the church (local) is something that Jesus intended for only some Christians to be a part of.
- For me the question of why the church has caused so much pain is so difficult. Partly I think we are naive to the distortion that faith has when it is in the hands of public decision making and politics, and partly I think it is an example of our “religion” being so full of sinners. It is more a testament to the saving sacrifice of Jesus then it is our failure.
So…how do you answer the question of why the church has failed so much?
said: 
said: 
said: 
said: 
said: 
said: 
Tyler Braun.
“yeah I believe in Jesus, but I don’t like church.” This is both the church’s failure and this person’s spiritual immaturity. ”
I think the second part of this statement is very wrong. You see the church is not about going to the four wall building, 10 songs and a preacher. The ritualistic routine of the Church is what has failed. People are tired of a routine. People are craving Jesus and the Church gives them “religion.” Christ commanded us to Love Him and Love our neighbors….He summoned up how we are to live our life in two sentances. The church is about you, the church is about me, the church lives w/ in me. Christ lives with in me, and if I am living Christ, then I am presenting the true identity of the church, the Bride in which Jesus celebrates.
You said this, “Jesus has called us to gather in his name.” Now, the Bible also tells us that when two, three or more gather in His name. SO- I don’t have to go to the four wall building with the 1 or 2 hour routine to “get” churched, I can gather with 1 or 2 other believers at a coffee shop, and have church. The goal is relationship. We were designed to have relationship with God and designed to have relationship w/ one another.
Is all this to say that those who go to Church on Sundays are wrong? Absolutely not.
But I think William P. Young, in his work, The Shack, put it gracefully, when he explains that the Triune God does not have hierarchy and is in perfect unity and relationship with one another. It is the Human race that sets hierarchy, particularly in the Church. So going to church is often set up w/ a schedule and a hierarchy of pastors and tasks, when really, just “being” in relationship w/ Jesus and w/ each other is what God had in mind….
I could go into an entire day of discussion on this stuff, but since my response has taken up so much space, I’ll stop for now….(wink).
To quite honest this portion ruffled my feathers a little “yeah I believe in Jesus, but I don’t like church.” But Ash brought about some good points, and now I’m not so ruffled.
Personally I see some seriously hard time coming for the church in th future. By the end of my life span for sure. Are people capable of sustaining their own faith with out being fed by Authors and Pastors deciphering there perspective of Gods Word.
K let me try and work through some of the things you brought up. I said things in a strong way purposely, so I’m not surprised that both of you didn’t like my wording.
When I talked about the local church I didn’t ever clarify what that looks like. Some people love going to a home church and meeting with 5 other people, others love going to churches of 5,000 people. I would call both the local church. So Ashley when you bring up the verse of where 2 or 3 are gathered I think that qualifies. A think church is a time of fellowship, a time to thank God (worship) and a time to learn and be challenged through some sort of study or teaching. I think I will go through a study of how Christ died for the church and how the church is both local and universal.
I would be really careful about using The Shack to base theology on. Young is not a theologian. I haven’t read the book but I’ve heard mixed reactions about some of the statements he is making through the book.
I am not saying church is perfect. What I am saying is that simply leaving the local church is not the answer. Be a part of the change at a place that fits you.
Feel to bring up more stuff.
[...] What is Wrong with the Church? [...]
Of course Young is not a theologian. But who’s talking “theology” here? Relationship w/ the Most High is not Theology and I think Young has done the BEST job, through a fictional piece, at showing the nature of God. The reason this work is controversial among so many Christian people is b/c of the way God shows up….and b/c it doesn’t stick to traditional thought, which is my point. You should read the book, might blow you away (wink).
But here is something else to consider, THIS is the church. You and I and the people who’ve entered this discussion, it is the church stirring one another…cool, huh?
awesome post Tyler. I think lately I have been realizing that the reason the church has failed so much is found not in others, or certain congregations, or denominations, but the greatest failure of the church is first traced to me. I truly believe that if it starts there, an introspective look within on where I am personally not lining up with God’s plan for the church, that holds the greatest potential for revival and change.
Quick note on the Shack, didn’t he cowrite the book with a noteable theologian? I remember reading about that but the details are fuzzy right now in my brain. I saw the midnight showing of Prince Caspian last night.
“Friendly fire”. (wounding our own)
Legalism.
Tradition. (treating it like Biblical truth)
Lack of humility.
Rejecting the sin we see in others, and not seeing them through Jesus’s eyes, for their true worth…
Existing in cliques.
Only greeting and seeing the same faces each Sunday.
Remembering past hurts.
Not taking advantage of open doors throughout our week, for deep conversation with others.
Not taking time to creatively re-invent what we need to do to be relevant to reach our present day culture.
Let’s put ourselves in an unbelievers mind…..what would bring them into a church building to attend a service? Without a meaningful friendship with someone who’s invited them, through genuine kindness and warmth, it is doubtful that they’ll step foot inside.
Without the Spirit of God, to re-direct their yearnings, why would they seek any change? Are we willing to be their friend, and direct them to OUR best FRIEND, and to our gathering place to worship him?
Sometimes, we are just too preoccupied with our own lives to have peripheral vision.
Ash- I hear everyone saying The Shack smacks in the face of traditional, conservative theology. My answer to that is along the lines of…..a fictional book is never going to make me change how I feel about who God is, and no earthly event should force me to re think the Biblical truth of who God is.
I do not mean that in a cocky way, but rather that I feel convincing about who God is through the Bible more than life, and while life is really really messed up it doesn’t have to change how I think about God.
Yes our conversation is some kind of weird, internet church. I do not think you can ever replace meeting face to face, the dynamic is too cool, but so is blogging. Very cool.
Jay-I think you are dead on. I’m not trying to point the finger at others as to why the church is viewed with such negativity. It can only start with me.
Lynne-this is my mom in law folks. Cant wait to see you in a few months. I think you are right on as well. Part of the root of this problem is being selfish and not outwardly focused.
I think one of the main things the church has nearly always done wrong is, we’re focused on “Go into all the world”, and we forget “and make disciples.” The church has always gone for increasing numbers of attendees rather than feeding those who are already there. That results in shallow Christianity that seeks to force its image on the rest of the world, rather than presenting Christ to the world through people who actually *look* like him.
Tyler…It’s not a conversion attempt. WE believe in the same Jesus who died for our sins…etc. The Shack may be fiction, but I will tell you that I found NOTHING in it that actually contridicts scripture…it’s all founded. And I was using it b/c I thought it made a good point and certainly had applicable content to the discussion. That’s all…”traditional theology?” Most theology has to do w/ traditional culture and belief, not always the very words of the Bible itself. Just my thougts….
Lynne, I like your note about relationship…b/c that is what its about. People who do not believe are tired of those who claim to and yet will not be their friends. You cannot earn someone’s trust about God if you cannot earn their trust and the human being you were created to be. Fabulous.
Seth- I thought what you said was spot on. Good call. I think I said a while back on the blog how in class we were talking about the purpose of the church. The end goal was always discipleship, with other things always leading towards discipleship.
Ashley- I should have said reformed theology, not traditional, sorry. I guess I’m just tired of hearing how the book changes everything about who God is. I just disagree with that. I’m not even saying that you were saying that. Sorry if I came off as rude.
I don’t think the “church” as the Body of Chirst has failed. I do think individual churches have failed when they focus on numbers and finances instead of following Christ in point of need ministry within their city.
The Bible tells us that Jesus was in the synagogue on the sabath, “as His custom was.” But, where did Jesus minister? He ministered every day at the point of need and He is our example. (1 Peter 2:21 NIV) “To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.”
Individuals and churches that follow Christ make up the Body of Christ and they will not fail. Instead of failing, they will impact cities with the love of Christ.
gaj