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	<title>Comments on: God Bless America</title>
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	<link>http://manofdepravity.com/2008/07/03/god-bless-america/</link>
	<description>Theology, Church ministry, Seminary, Worship // Proving that even bad writers get readers.</description>
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		<title>By: travis wals</title>
		<link>http://manofdepravity.com/2008/07/03/god-bless-america/comment-page-1/#comment-1396</link>
		<dc:creator>travis wals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tylerbraun.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-1396</guid>
		<description>1. what is the point of not celebrating fourth of july?

the reasons i decided not to celebrate the fourth of july were to remove myself from the routine i have been a part of for the past twenty three years, to take a look at the reasons for which the people around me were celebrating, and to contemplate the question &quot;what is the point of christians celebrating the fourth of july&quot;. i took a look at the reson for the fourth of july: a federal holiday commemorating the adoption of the declaration of independence and a celebration of the history, government, and traditions of the United States.  i think the tendency in this celebration is to promote america/democracy as intrinsicly &quot;good&quot;, when i am not convinced that is the case. the entire day i had the story of king solomon running through my head (1 Kings 11). the son of king david, solomon knew the lord, but he began to make alliances with other nations when the lord had commanded &quot;you shall not...for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods&quot;. solomon&#039;s heart was compromised. is my taking part in raising up america a way of making an alliance? do i compromise my faithfulness by pursuing the &quot;gods&quot; of america (i.e. consumerism, safety, my &quot;rights&quot;, control)?

i think that as christians we can be thankful for the places in which american history, government, and traditions have aligned in some shape or form with the working of God&#039;s redemptive story, but i am not convinced that we should particpate in the praise of this nation-state. the point of not celebrating the fourth of july is to raise questions and to challenge the common acceptance of a pagan holiday by the community of believers.


2. how did i not celebrate?

well, it was interesting as i was on a mission trip with our high school youth group here in seattle. one of the organizations we were working with invited us to come watch the fireworks over elliott bay from their location that has a stellar view of the bay. so, my not celebrating the fourth of july took the form of raising the questions i have in my own mind/heart. having coversations. listening to other interpretations. and trying to interpret further what my role as a christian is in this nationalistic celebration.



3. why live here?

i am not advocating for christian abandonment of america. i live here because this is where God has led me. this is my place of ministry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. what is the point of not celebrating fourth of july?</p>
<p>the reasons i decided not to celebrate the fourth of july were to remove myself from the routine i have been a part of for the past twenty three years, to take a look at the reasons for which the people around me were celebrating, and to contemplate the question &#8220;what is the point of christians celebrating the fourth of july&#8221;. i took a look at the reson for the fourth of july: a federal holiday commemorating the adoption of the declaration of independence and a celebration of the history, government, and traditions of the United States.  i think the tendency in this celebration is to promote america/democracy as intrinsicly &#8220;good&#8221;, when i am not convinced that is the case. the entire day i had the story of king solomon running through my head (1 Kings 11). the son of king david, solomon knew the lord, but he began to make alliances with other nations when the lord had commanded &#8220;you shall not&#8230;for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods&#8221;. solomon&#8217;s heart was compromised. is my taking part in raising up america a way of making an alliance? do i compromise my faithfulness by pursuing the &#8220;gods&#8221; of america (i.e. consumerism, safety, my &#8220;rights&#8221;, control)?</p>
<p>i think that as christians we can be thankful for the places in which american history, government, and traditions have aligned in some shape or form with the working of God&#8217;s redemptive story, but i am not convinced that we should particpate in the praise of this nation-state. the point of not celebrating the fourth of july is to raise questions and to challenge the common acceptance of a pagan holiday by the community of believers.</p>
<p>2. how did i not celebrate?</p>
<p>well, it was interesting as i was on a mission trip with our high school youth group here in seattle. one of the organizations we were working with invited us to come watch the fireworks over elliott bay from their location that has a stellar view of the bay. so, my not celebrating the fourth of july took the form of raising the questions i have in my own mind/heart. having coversations. listening to other interpretations. and trying to interpret further what my role as a christian is in this nationalistic celebration.</p>
<p>3. why live here?</p>
<p>i am not advocating for christian abandonment of america. i live here because this is where God has led me. this is my place of ministry.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://manofdepravity.com/2008/07/03/god-bless-america/comment-page-1/#comment-1395</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tylerbraun.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-1395</guid>
		<description>glad you found me travis.

i can see your point, but let me say ask these questions:

1.what is the point of not celebrating 4th of July?
2.how do you not celebrate it?
3.if you cannot celebrate it in good faith, then what is the point of living here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>glad you found me travis.</p>
<p>i can see your point, but let me say ask these questions:</p>
<p>1.what is the point of not celebrating 4th of July?<br />
2.how do you not celebrate it?<br />
3.if you cannot celebrate it in good faith, then what is the point of living here?</p>
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		<title>By: travis wals</title>
		<link>http://manofdepravity.com/2008/07/03/god-bless-america/comment-page-1/#comment-1394</link>
		<dc:creator>travis wals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tylerbraun.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-1394</guid>
		<description>found your blog in a somewhat round-a-bout fashion, but was intrigued by this post. i have been doing some study in this area of america and christianity and thought i may throw out some sources to further this conversation for you. not sure if you have heard of john yoder or stanley hauerwas, but they would be some good minds to include in this conversation. hauerwas has an essay &quot;a christian critique of christian america&quot; that raises some very interesting points.

personally, i chose not to celebrate the fourth of july, this year being the first of my twenty-four year run here on earth, because more and more i am finding its theologically a scandal. i believe it is in and through the community of believers, church, that God desires to work his plan of redemption. now, the actions of the powers that be (i.e. america) may occasionally align with the work of redemption, but they are not the primary community through whom God works. i think the church, disciples of christ, have to come to rely heavily on the political system and with habits that are hard to break, the church has given a kind of allegiance to the nation-state and compromised its witness. i am not trying to advocate for a withdrawl of Christians from politics and culture. i think &quot;we can use the machinery of democracy for our own and our neighbor&#039;s advantage. But we should not, thereby, be lulled into believing that &#039;we the people&#039; are thereby governing ourselves. Democracy is still government by the elite, though it may be less oppressive since it uses language in its justification that provides ways to mitigate oppressiveness. But that does not make democracy, from a Christian point of view, different in kind from states of another form&quot; (hauerwas).

Also, in multiple conversations and other blogs i hear people say they are thankful for the freedoms this country provides, and i have to admit that I enjoy those freedoms as well. But I am often haunted by the thought of &quot;at whose expense do i appreciate these freedoms?&quot;

just some incomplete thoughts.

t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>found your blog in a somewhat round-a-bout fashion, but was intrigued by this post. i have been doing some study in this area of america and christianity and thought i may throw out some sources to further this conversation for you. not sure if you have heard of john yoder or stanley hauerwas, but they would be some good minds to include in this conversation. hauerwas has an essay &#8220;a christian critique of christian america&#8221; that raises some very interesting points.</p>
<p>personally, i chose not to celebrate the fourth of july, this year being the first of my twenty-four year run here on earth, because more and more i am finding its theologically a scandal. i believe it is in and through the community of believers, church, that God desires to work his plan of redemption. now, the actions of the powers that be (i.e. america) may occasionally align with the work of redemption, but they are not the primary community through whom God works. i think the church, disciples of christ, have to come to rely heavily on the political system and with habits that are hard to break, the church has given a kind of allegiance to the nation-state and compromised its witness. i am not trying to advocate for a withdrawl of Christians from politics and culture. i think &#8220;we can use the machinery of democracy for our own and our neighbor&#8217;s advantage. But we should not, thereby, be lulled into believing that &#8216;we the people&#8217; are thereby governing ourselves. Democracy is still government by the elite, though it may be less oppressive since it uses language in its justification that provides ways to mitigate oppressiveness. But that does not make democracy, from a Christian point of view, different in kind from states of another form&#8221; (hauerwas).</p>
<p>Also, in multiple conversations and other blogs i hear people say they are thankful for the freedoms this country provides, and i have to admit that I enjoy those freedoms as well. But I am often haunted by the thought of &#8220;at whose expense do i appreciate these freedoms?&#8221;</p>
<p>just some incomplete thoughts.</p>
<p>t</p>
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		<title>By: Janet Fraser</title>
		<link>http://manofdepravity.com/2008/07/03/god-bless-america/comment-page-1/#comment-1393</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet Fraser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tylerbraun.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-1393</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s something about this post next to the Limbaugh salary post that makes me a little sick to my stomach.  I am grateful that I was born here where pursuing God in freedom was easy, but the complacency and ethnocentrism of many Americans really bugs me. Maybe that&#039;s the problem I have with the whole God Bless America thing.
Matthew 5:1-11
1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
 3&quot;Blessed are the poor in spirit,
      for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
 4Blessed are those who mourn,
      for they will be comforted.
 5Blessed are the meek,
      for they will inherit the earth.
 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
      for they will be filled.
 7Blessed are the merciful,
      for they will be shown mercy.
 8Blessed are the pure in heart,
      for they will see God.
 9Blessed are the peacemakers,
      for they will be called sons of God.
 10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
      for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
 11&quot;Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Looking in Scriptures Christ&#039;s perspective on &quot;blessed&quot; is in direct contradiction to the American (commercial) dream
And then you&#039;ve got a guy like Limbaugh, in a free market, making enough money to provide clean water to the world? Again, sick to my stomach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s something about this post next to the Limbaugh salary post that makes me a little sick to my stomach.  I am grateful that I was born here where pursuing God in freedom was easy, but the complacency and ethnocentrism of many Americans really bugs me. Maybe that&#8217;s the problem I have with the whole God Bless America thing.<br />
Matthew 5:1-11<br />
1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:<br />
 3&#8243;Blessed are the poor in spirit,<br />
      for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.<br />
 4Blessed are those who mourn,<br />
      for they will be comforted.<br />
 5Blessed are the meek,<br />
      for they will inherit the earth.<br />
 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,<br />
      for they will be filled.<br />
 7Blessed are the merciful,<br />
      for they will be shown mercy.<br />
 8Blessed are the pure in heart,<br />
      for they will see God.<br />
 9Blessed are the peacemakers,<br />
      for they will be called sons of God.<br />
 10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,<br />
      for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.<br />
 11&#8243;Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.</p>
<p>Looking in Scriptures Christ&#8217;s perspective on &#8220;blessed&#8221; is in direct contradiction to the American (commercial) dream<br />
And then you&#8217;ve got a guy like Limbaugh, in a free market, making enough money to provide clean water to the world? Again, sick to my stomach.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://manofdepravity.com/2008/07/03/god-bless-america/comment-page-1/#comment-1392</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tylerbraun.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-1392</guid>
		<description>got it.

i do a lot of things to be hip, but saying &quot;yo&quot; isn&#039;t one of them. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>got it.</p>
<p>i do a lot of things to be hip, but saying &#8220;yo&#8221; isn&#8217;t one of them. <img src='http://manofdepravity.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: brent(inWorship)</title>
		<link>http://manofdepravity.com/2008/07/03/god-bless-america/comment-page-1/#comment-1391</link>
		<dc:creator>brent(inWorship)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tylerbraun.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-1391</guid>
		<description>Ummm...

I would, say the same thing..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ummm&#8230;</p>
<p>I would, say the same thing..</p>
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		<title>By: brent(inWorship)</title>
		<link>http://manofdepravity.com/2008/07/03/god-bless-america/comment-page-1/#comment-1390</link>
		<dc:creator>brent(inWorship)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tylerbraun.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-1390</guid>
		<description>Tyler, I would see the say the same thing.

Of course, it would have been better had you said, &quot;i’m just sayin…YO!&quot;

That&#039;s more hip :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tyler, I would see the say the same thing.</p>
<p>Of course, it would have been better had you said, &#8220;i’m just sayin…YO!&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s more hip <img src='http://manofdepravity.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://manofdepravity.com/2008/07/03/god-bless-america/comment-page-1/#comment-1389</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 03:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tylerbraun.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-1389</guid>
		<description>knowing jay pretty well and brent moderately well, i think both of you see mostly eye to eye on this. not that you can&#039;t continue the conversation...i&#039;m just sayin...ya know...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>knowing jay pretty well and brent moderately well, i think both of you see mostly eye to eye on this. not that you can&#8217;t continue the conversation&#8230;i&#8217;m just sayin&#8230;ya know&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: brent(inWorship)</title>
		<link>http://manofdepravity.com/2008/07/03/god-bless-america/comment-page-1/#comment-1388</link>
		<dc:creator>brent(inWorship)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 03:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tylerbraun.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-1388</guid>
		<description>Jay, I struggle with us &quot;pushing&quot; our Christian morals and values on people, but I also understand that it is inevitable that we will vote and lead that way as Christians. Not necessarily &quot;pushing&quot; it on people, but definitely influencing the culture we live in.

&quot;The government then is a sense has more parenting power by what is taught at schools, universities, and what becomes law or not.&quot;

This is what drives me to be an active Christian participant in my community. I understand that Godly principles and morals will always be good for the community, but they do not. But it seems the Christian community has become a very quiet voice, so their are others that are speaking for us. The sticky part is either to become a silly radical right wing group that enforces everything on everybody, or to become those that actually extend the love of Jesus to others and show our world the Godly principles and morals that we say we believe in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, I struggle with us &#8220;pushing&#8221; our Christian morals and values on people, but I also understand that it is inevitable that we will vote and lead that way as Christians. Not necessarily &#8220;pushing&#8221; it on people, but definitely influencing the culture we live in.</p>
<p>&#8220;The government then is a sense has more parenting power by what is taught at schools, universities, and what becomes law or not.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is what drives me to be an active Christian participant in my community. I understand that Godly principles and morals will always be good for the community, but they do not. But it seems the Christian community has become a very quiet voice, so their are others that are speaking for us. The sticky part is either to become a silly radical right wing group that enforces everything on everybody, or to become those that actually extend the love of Jesus to others and show our world the Godly principles and morals that we say we believe in.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay McKenney</title>
		<link>http://manofdepravity.com/2008/07/03/god-bless-america/comment-page-1/#comment-1387</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay McKenney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 22:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tylerbraun.wordpress.com/?p=445#comment-1387</guid>
		<description>Brent,
Awesome thoughts man.  Ya, I agree, ultimately I choose my morality before God, not the government, but I also feel that what the government does legislate is not only a reflection of the countries morales, but also can help push what a generation of people will care or not care about, especially in today&#039;s society where so many homes are broken and there aren&#039;t parents at home guiding and teaching their children.  The government then is a sense has more parenting power by what is taught at schools, universities, and what becomes law or not.

Love your last statement.  That would be awesome.

Jay</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brent,<br />
Awesome thoughts man.  Ya, I agree, ultimately I choose my morality before God, not the government, but I also feel that what the government does legislate is not only a reflection of the countries morales, but also can help push what a generation of people will care or not care about, especially in today&#8217;s society where so many homes are broken and there aren&#8217;t parents at home guiding and teaching their children.  The government then is a sense has more parenting power by what is taught at schools, universities, and what becomes law or not.</p>
<p>Love your last statement.  That would be awesome.</p>
<p>Jay</p>
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