I won’t even get into the death penalty. That is another issue outside of this one. The idea of murdering gays because they are gay is wrong and hateful. We need to look at the OT with a view of the covenants that applied back then.

I totally get that morality is very very important. But I still think sin is as rampant today as it was 1000 years ago. Just because people live more free doesn’t mean they sin more.

On point #1 I never said wearing a bathing suit is a sin – but my point was to show a varying degree in the lessening of morality in the world today. Second, you don’t need to be God to see for ourselves that the morality of mankind has been on a fast decline for over the past 30 years or there have been times throughout history were morality has varied (I suggest Francis Shaeffer’s “How then should we then live” as a good source on this topic). God has equipped you with a conscience and has written his laws upon the heart of every person, so we as humans have the capacity to know right from wrong and to see it in varying degrees of contrast. I am sorry, but if you can’t see that the current state of the world is far different than say 50 years then you have your head in the sand – this too may have to do with your age as I am considerably older than you are. Take pedophilia and pornography for example as compared to 30-40 years ago. Not to say neither were occurring back then, but at least people were embarrassed or shamed for doing such things. Now we have inacted laws that actually promote and allow such behavior.

On point #3 I was simply using deductive reasoning here. Given what we know about the culture and the society Jesus lived in we can then use simple reasoning skills to understand what societal pressures Jesus may have encountered back then and why he may have not discussed or encountered homosexuality. I am not suggesting we use this as gospel, but simply to speculate as to why it was never discussed. As for your comment regarding capital punishment as a moral deterrent for sin – your issue then is not with me, but with God. It is clear in the OT that God used capital punishment as a moral deterrent within the tribes of Israel. Personally speaking, if I were to witness my neighbor being stoned to death 3,000 years ago for committing adultery, I think I would have to think twice as to what consequences would result from my actions. Your problem is you must harmonize this picture of God with also the picture of Jesus. In my theology I have no problem harmonizing the two as neither are different from one another, but still the same picture of God. Let’s not simply overlook those passages in the OT and think then that the God of the OT is somehow different than the God of the NT. This is common with dispensational theology.

#1…by God’s grace all is not lost and only by God’s grace. Wearing bathing suits isn’t a sin. Lusting at the people in them is and wearing them as a sense of pride is. The issue I have here is about saying this generation is more sinful is that you are coming at it from God’s perspective…a perspective you can’t have.

#2…I said homosexuality is not bigger than other sexual sins. I realize sexual sin is worse than many other sins, the Bible even says so. I’m not sure we disagree here.

#3…I don’t think we can say exactly why nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality discussed. All we know is that in the Bible he isn’t quoted as talking about it. The reasons why would be pure speculation. I get the sense that you are saying that capital punishment is a great deterrent from sin…and I think human life is more valuable than trying to deter it from sin.

Let me ask you this then. Has there ever been a time in history where man has actually been less immoral than say other generations? Clearly there are examples in the OT where God tells Israel they are more sinful than previous generations and vice-versa. Take for example something so simple as bathinbg suits. 50-75 years ago it was consider scandalous and immoral not to have your body covered to some great degree (both men & women!). However, as we can see from just the past 30 years bathing suits have gone from being somewhat modest to nothing more than a piece of string and gauze. History has shown that when the church was at its strongest, morality was also at its highest point (ex. the 1st & 2nd great awakenings). Your comments seems to imply that all is lost even for those who are regenerated and that Christ can only bring victory over sin for the world until we are dead and resurrected. I disagree – in Christ all things are possible, including victory over sin.

Second, to say homosexuality is not a greater sin than say lying is also a false precept. Jesus clearly delineates that some sins are actually greater than others. For example, take a look at both Lamentations 4:6 and John 19:11 and you will see God most certainly see’s sins at varying degrees – just as a good and righteous judge should. To say lying or stealing is the same as murder, rape, or homosexuality is just plain false. Paul even says in 1 Cor 6 that sexual sins are particularly more devasitating than other sins, becuase its the only sin that is committed with the body. Homosexuality is a greater sin because not only does it go against our human nature, but it goes against how God designed not only our bodies, but also how he ordained marriage. To say homosexuality is the same as any other sin, then I would disagree. Once homosexuality is accepted within a society it opens the door for a greater darkening of other sins and abominations – See Sodom and Gomorrah.

Another note – The reason Christ probably didn’t address homosexuality when he was here on earth is because he was primarily dealing with Jews and a theocracy that stoned homosexuals. God had ordained capital punishment for such acts, and rightfully so as the Law in this case was a tremendous moral deterrent and thus homosexual acts within Isreal were probably very rare than say adultery or stealing. Paul speaks of homosexuality more frequently as this behavior was more common in Pagan societies.

Of course, both sides are Argument from Silence when discussing Jesus’ teachings on this.

But to slide just a bit- I think that the modern church deals with homosexuality on two extremes. Either they don’t deal with it at all and bull horn their opinion from the back row OR they frivolously allow their pastors to be gay etc. It is an issue of “hate the sin, love the sinner,” or perhaps, “the child of God.” I have a friend who is gay. I love her dearly! I don’t necessarily agree w/ her lifestyle and while we had the conversation- I won’t continue to judge her, rather embrace her and even her girlfriend. She’s not an evil person, she’s shouldn’t be banned from church. She’s an amazing human being and a good friend. Her partner, equally the same. God must deal with each person’s heart in his way, in his time and that person, whomever they are, must be willing….in other words, a choice they must make. It is a both/and system, a grey issue….not homosexuality in and of itself, but how we treat the community….

The American Evangelical church exhausts their efforts into one or two issues when many of them refuse to look at their own pulpits who have liars, adulterers, etc. It’s the idea that Jesus talked about when he said that we need to get the log out of our own eye before we bother to look at the speck in someone else’s. And then again, CHRISTIANS need Jesus just the same….we all screw up…who are we to judge people that are acting exactly as they should if they do not believe as we do?

Like I said, to me, it’s all both and.