I would say that it is predominantly a generational gap. I make that statement as a guy who grew up in a very conservative church in North Carolina. Growing up, we stood and sang from the hymnals. No one hardly sang, let alone raised their hands. The choir director & choir did all the singing. I remember even thinking as a kid that there’s no way it’s like this in heaven….the angels just staring down and mumbling praise to God. It seems nowadays as the church tries to focus heavily on bringing popular culture into the church to attract those searching for God that they really promote freedom in worship. I’ve heard week in and week out about David being even more undignified as this when naked. That definitely encourages folks to let it go when they worship. That never would have been said in church (at least for me) 20 years ago….heck, maybe even 10. I’d say the majority of the older generation are having problems with that transition. However, with me now being in Arizona, I haven’t (obviously) noticed it quite so much. Some of the most “visible” worshipers (take that for what it’s worth) in my old church here were almost always over 60. Go figure.

I know that you knew I would weigh in on this.

Often, it is easy to feel one knows why someone else does or does not do something. Unless you are in their shoes, you really don’t. As a wise youth leader pointed out to us, decades ago, when the similar topic was discussed, he said that those ‘really old people’ wanted to express themselves differently than the generation before them. They grew older and then their kids wanted their own way to express themselves. Then their grandkids wanted their own way. Each generation has a need to carve out its own way. It doesn’t make it right or wrong, better or worse. It just is.

I am of the middle generation. Life has a way of weighting one down. It takes time to clear the debris from the mind & heart to focus on worship. Especially debris that leaves one feeling so judged by the younger generation.

A sweet couple, long-time members, of the generation before me said, it feels as if they have been stamped as irrelevant, social faux pas, physical misfits and are void of ideas worthy of merit…mostly at church. Just try letting loose and worshiping without being self-conscious, while feeling judged like that!

Josh, “Some of the most “visible” worshipers (take that for what it’s worth) in my old church here were almost always over 60. ” You were a privileged young man. Those people over 60 paid for the church building that you grew up in, paid the salary of the staff that you learned from, invested their time as volunteers in ministries that shaped you, spent time on their knees praying for your salvation and spiritual growth, brought meals to your home in times of need, mentored by example how to be a light in the community and schools that you attended, and (if you are married) probably helped feather your new nest with wedding presents…only to have you judge them as impotent worshipers. If what they did for the younger generation wasn’t a form of worship, I don’t know what is! Worship is certainly a lot more than the type of music used in a service.

Be prepared, Echo Boomers/Millennials/Gen-Y. Your words are going to haunt you in 20-30 years. Mine did. The thoughts of my parents did.

I’m not understanding where you are getting this “only to have you judge them as impotent worshipers”? Can you explain?

I don’t think it’s a generational issue as much as an issue of teaching. There are so many expressions in worship, but unless people are taught/shown them they will not feel comfortable using them.

Tyler,
Please clarify this statement

“Part of me wants to call some of this a spiritual maturity issue”

Would one type of worshiping be more ‘spiritually mature’ than the other?

I had somebody who flat out told me a few years ago in front of everybody (he’s much younger than me..maybe by 10 years)that even though he’s younger than me, he is spiritually more mature than me.

I was going to TP his car or splash the drink to his face, but that wouldn’t be too spiritually mature of me

Can’t you tell that my fuse is getting shorter on this type of stupidity?

Yes I can clarify that statement. When someone refuses to respond to God with an emotional expression of worship, I think that could be a spiritual maturity issue. I wouldn’t judge from the outside looking at someone that it is, I’m just saying that it could be. God wants to break down barriers in our lives and certainly he wants us to not be confined by our natural laid back tendencies in worship (I’m talking about myself there).

I personally feel that there are many ways to worship. God made people different…some of them are natural clappers, some of them don’t sing during worship but they naturally shed tears when others sing, some may do the shimmy and lift their hands. I don’t even think of any of them of ‘could be’ having spiritual maturity issue.

Although you said that you don’t judge from the outside, but that is how many people DO judge others based on what they see. Trust me..I have been at the receiving end of this from the so-called mature christians.

and we will agree to disagree on this

Thank you for asking for clarification. That was the exact word used, too. They were feeling like they were seen/judged as empty, powerless, weak, feeble (impotent) worshipers, because they do not always respond in a physically obvious way. This very thing had been the focus of discussion in their small group recently.

Is freedom in worship a generational difference? Yes. People feel less free and more self conscious, when judged.

Our posts cover similar material:http://melindalgroth.blogspot.com/2009/09/flip-side-of-generational-divide-in.html

Melinda,
I was going to post another thought something along the lines of my own experience dealing with people with ‘if you don’t do it this way you might have a problem’ and fresh-graduates from bible school, but it’s probably too offensive for some of Tyler’s reader

I will email you directly.

Melinda and Yonas- I was never trying to come across as judging on saying that a lack of physical expression in worship was always a bad thing. I really don’t think that is a case. I’m merely trying to understand whether it is a generational difference or something else. If it is just a generational difference in some ways it is relieving to know it isn’t my fault they don’t respond the way I do all the time, and in some ways it is disheartening to know it will be almost impossible to bring them along to understanding younger generations and how they worship.

OK then if you’re trying to understand. Here’s my answer:

It is generational, cultural and sometimes just as plain as different people worship differently. That’s all and nothing more.

Saying people’s certain way of worshiping ‘could be’ more spiritually mature than the other is almost like saying Chris Tomlins songs are more spiritually blessed than the old hymns..and we know some people have gotten ulcers over this lovely discussion

I don’t raise my arms during worship and I don’t mind when somebody next to or in front of me does (unless they poke my eye in the process or block my view of the lyric screen then it’s a problem, which easily resolved by me moving to a different seat).

See you Thursday

OK OK..one more and then I’ll move on to greener pastures

“If it is just a generational difference in some ways it is relieving to know it isn’t my fault they don’t respond the way I do all the time, and in some ways it is disheartening to know it will be almost impossible to bring them along to understanding younger generations and how they worship.”

1. Why does that have to be your ‘fault’? Are you talking in terms of being a worship leader?

2. Bring them who?

People do NOT have to respond to worship the way I do(or you or anybody) and I think sometimes we are too focused on the way people respond to gauge their involvement in worship. Outer expression does not always mean better..just like churches with thousands of people raising their hands on Sunday service is not necessarily better than small groups with 10.

Maybe I’m off base…I’m like that when I haven’t had my lunch (and it’s only 10!)

Tyler, in your post you write, “Part of me wants to call some of this a spiritual maturity issue but many in my class shared that they simply think it is a generational gap.”

Help me understand: Are you saying, which is how I (and it appears others) read that sentence, that you think that on SOME level, physical expression during worship indicate spiritual maturity levels?

That’s a bold, bold statement. Because, for a person like myself, DESIGNED BY OUR CREATOR, I am a natually physically reserved person. I find my deepest connection to God when there is pure silence and I am alone. Why does anyone think they have the ability to determine who is more worshipful? God knows my heart. You don’t.

Melinda- The scenario that you referred to about the older generation is surely a true statement…for someone. This, however was not my experience growing up and serving in the church, both in NC and now AZ.

As a matter of fact, it was the opposite. The people (and their families before them) in my home church in NC did build the building and did pay the salaries of the staff, and they reminded leadership of this on a daily basis to defend not wanting to go outside their comfort zones. It was a family-dominated congregation, and there was severe resistance in regards to reaching any people outside of the walls of the church. So, suffice it to say that my experience was definitely different. As the worship leader there, I constantly struggled with being secure in leading them if there was no outward response. So, you could imagine my surprise when I moved and started leading a very large church in AZ with 60+ yr. olds who’s outward worship was contagious. It completely wrecked any idea I had of the young vs. old generation of worshipers.

You said, “Is freedom in worship a generational difference? Yes. People feel less free and more self conscious, when judged”….I’m sorry the people in your small group feel that way, because in my opinion, there isn’t much that shows me more that God is the same yesterday, today and forever than an older follower of Christ worshiping to music that they’d probably never listen to today and not caring about the style. The glory of God transcends musical style. I would hope that it would be proved to them by the younger generation worshiping in the same way to the wonderful hymns of old.

All this comes out of my post last week on freedom in worship.

http://manofdepravity.com/2009/09/08/freedom-in-worship/

“it is disheartening to know it will be almost impossible to bring them along to understanding younger generations and how they worship.” Who says they don’t understand, or haven’t worshiped in like manner, before, themselves?

Many are delighted by seeing such freedom of expression. What is not delighted in is being judged as less mature a worshiper, for not exhibiting the signs expected of being a mature worshiper, at that given moment. They just communicate their worship in a different manner.

I have not ever heard someone who is not raising their arms, during a time of worship, mock or profess being baffled by those that choose to raise their arms. Never. Have you? I’ve only heard those that do, be baffled by/disheartened by those who don’t.

Analogy: As a profoundly hearing impaired person, I lip-read. It is what I am comfortable with and has proven to be a wonderful means of communication for me. I have learned a small amount of ASL and a great deal of ISL…but I rely on/choose to lip-read. Does that make those that sign more ‘true’ to the deaf culture? Some hearing impaired persons have had surgical implants to help them hear. Are they making a wiser choice? Hopefully you can see that all are viable means of communicating with other people and are choices that are made, based on many different factors. All make their choice because they want to communicate. The same is true for how we worship. We want to communicate, but we each have our own way to do so and God understands all of the ways that we approach Him. We choose the way that suits us as individuals. It is not a maturity issue.

I am not jumping all over you, Tyler. If I didn’t think you have something of quality to say, I wouldn’t read your posts. I like that you allow for varied perspectives. Keep cultivating that. It digs up the junk form the ditch so that it can be hauled away.

Tyler,

I feel like you’re coming from the perspective of a worship leader primarily, which is where I would come from when writing a post like this.

I would say that the the whole “outward worship = true worship” is not the thought here. It’s definitely not for me. I’m a worship leader, but am naturally a very reserved person in worship…God is just fine with that.

Sorry Tyler..you know we love you!

Next beer is on me.

When I speak of “fault,” yes I am talking from a place of leading worship.

I think we often hide behind the words “That’s just not how I was made.” Example: We see lifting of hands as a normal and frequent way of praising God in Scripture. Why would I not want to do this? Why would I not want to, like David, lift my hands to the Maker of Heaven and Earth? Is there something in me that is keeping me from participating? Somtimes, no matter your personality or disposition, your body cries out to respond to God. Yes, there can be diversity, but there are acts that are universal.

With all due respect….

Universal according to who? Who made that rule? Did I miss a memo on this?

I’m done.

I just don’t see why it’s anyone else’s concern if I raise my hands, close my eyes, cry, etc… So the worship leader feels like he/she is doing their job?? Maybe the physical act of BEING IN CHURCH is able all some people can muster on a given Sunday. Maybe a person’s heart is so broken that they don’t have any more tears to cry, or the energy to raise their arms. Is someone keeping track? Sounds like it. And you wonder why people are leaving the church…

I should clarify my last sentence… “leaving the church” meaning, not attending a church service.

Discussion is good. I know a lot of judgment gets thrown around, but just because I may see things differently, doesn’t mean I judge someone that disagrees. In the end, it’s between myself and the Lord as to what is appropriate. And the same for other believers. Please forgive me if anyone took it as I was trying to force someone to see my way. I’ve enjoyed everyone’s perspective and just wanted to chime in with mine. I think it’s good to learn from one another.

Totally valid points Jos.

I’m not trying to throw around any judgment on those who aren’t as expressive in their worship. I’m just trying to understand if it is a generational thing, because generally I think churches who are attracting loads of young people are expressive in their worship. This isn’t always the case, just a generalization I’ve seen in the few places I’ve been. In fact, maybe those who are expressive in their worship need to figure out why they are expressive. I have no doubts there are many who are expressive just to look like they are more spiritual than others.

I think it has much to do with the change in the church. It wasn’t that long ago everyone sang from hymnals. But many traditional churches are stagnant or dying. What you’ve seen over the last couple decades is many churches, and most new churches, shift to a more contemporary and “free-er” worship experience, and that’s what many younger people have been raised on or exposed to … it’s what they know. They didn’t start off in pews and hymnals. They started with movable chairs, lyrics from PowerPoint on the wall, and a worship band.

“I have no doubts there are many who are expressive just to look like they are more spiritual than others.” That sentence hits the nail on the head for me. It shows that you can’t judge a book buy it’s cover.

Yes, the younger generation probably IS more physically expressive… as people age and mature, most adults naturally become more reserved but that doesn’t mean that they worship any less in their minds and hearts.

I think that there is a part of it that is a generational difference. The influences in how our elderly folks perceive the world and think about things are very different than for that of those of us in our 20s.

It seems that each generation ends up with a predominant style of expression, but even then, it’s a bit of an oversimplification. For instance I was in a pretty expressive Assemblies of God church (all the older generations) but a large number of our youth students were not expressive. After a lot of frustration and processing, our youth staff determined that many of our students were just as focused and into worship, but had a different style of how it was expressed.

It’s really easy to project one type of expression as “the expression,” but I know for a lot of people it really can be an internal thing instead of an external, and freedom of expression means leaving room for the un-physically expressive as well.

I should be clear, here, that the same people feel that, from the platform, SPC does a great job of filling in the divide. Verbally affirming that there are multiple ways to worship, is helpful. That has been a balm.

The feelings of division come from (ahem) reading blog posts and such. Surely you know that people read posts but do not necessarily leave comments.

Interesting reading, and lots of good points written on this one.
No, I don’t believe that outward signs of worship are a generational thing. We have been in an non-denominational evangelical church for over 35 years, and people of all ages have been expressive in the ways they personally want to worship.
However, we have from time to time visited more conservative denominations, and have noticed less of the outward worship expressed. My conclusions from these times have been that the silent codes of worship conduct are a culture set within each church. A Lutheran or Methodist raising their hands may be a minority, but regardless, hearts in the congregation reverently and quietly worship in spirit. That is not better or worse, just a different flavor of worship.
Perhaps the “worship traditions” of the church where you are serving have not included these outward physical signs as part of their routine worship.

Just to throw another point into all of this….(as I am comfortable with others expressing their worship in any outward way they choose), I find it distracting in my own time with God when people are jumping up and down throughout a song, in front of me. The point of this observation is just to point out, that while people should be free to worship however they please, there should also be a sensitivity to others around you, in not blocking their view of the power point screen, or being a major visual distraction, etc.. Maybe more boisterous worship could be set up in the back of the worship hall?
(I know this is totally off the subject you’d intended, but thought it might fit in to the mix of comments you’ve generated.)

As a worship leader, I would encourage you to not feel the pressure of needing to see evidence of what God is doing in the hearts of your congregation.

Good post Lynne!

wow, lot of discussion w/ this…and even some tension, i see. look ultimately~ we can never ever judge someone’s maturity. period. that’s up the God Almighty. He knows the heart. our generation tends to be more expressive than the previous. but it’s not black and white. the first time i ever saw someone kneel and raise his hands in the presence of God, i was about 5…and it was uncle- the generation above me. my dad on the other hand, who loves the Lord just as deeply and profoundly as my uncle is not expressive at all. i have never seen him dance and he usually messes up the words to worship songs. i on the other hand …anymore, am probably more expressive when i’m not among a crowd. so ultimately, what God loves is the heart behind the worship and life being lived…not weather or not we’re showing it on Sunday morning. shrug

By “expressive” do we meaning raising hands? So if I am emotionally driven to silence or tears (something that happens for both my wife and I) am I less mature? Raising hands may be generational or the fact that many more of your generation grew up in an atmosphere where freedom in worship was greater than it was in mine. I love attending worship with those who are much younger than I am. When I see their authentic and heartfelt worship I am often driven to tears because of the depth of their love for Jesus and the genuineness of their worship. It is because of them (and people like you, Tyler) that I am extremely positive and hopeful for the future of the church. I just wish I was 20 years younger so I could be in the midst of it longer!

Can’t let this go without my 2 cents worth.
On the generational thing the answer is yes and no! Generations need to find a way to express themselves. Sometimes it comes back full circle as in the horrible 70′s colors that some think are cool… Avocado Green is never pretty cept on avocados.

Expressive worship and maturity: Some are going to grow INTO a place where they will raise their hands and such. Others will have periods of their life when such dancing and the the like are expressive. Others will grow OUT OF it to a place where quiet, introspection is just as meaningful.

Worship Leadership…Reformed faith says worship is about God. The leader/preacher/director/mc/dog and pony show is not the focus. When it is worship gets off track. The best of us are failures at leading worship because we’re sinners saved by grace.

My most frustrating experience ever was to have a 50 something leave a conference with me after a very mediocre message by a big-name pastor and tell the church, “worship was wonderful, I knew all the songs”. How shallow and off track can one get.

Tyler, you’re doing a great job. Keep it up and lighten up on yourself there will be some real problems later on in the ministry…. LOL..

Peace
Your brother in Him
Alan