Comments on: Missing the Point http://manofdepravity.com/2009/11/12/missing-the-point/ Theology, Church ministry, Seminary, Worship // Proving that even bad writers get readers. Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:04:57 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Tyler http://manofdepravity.com/2009/11/12/missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-5553 Tyler Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:08:57 +0000 http://manofdepravity.com/?p=3872#comment-5553 No wonder they couldn't find anyone to hire. No wonder they couldn’t find anyone to hire.

]]> By: Yonas http://manofdepravity.com/2009/11/12/missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-5552 Yonas Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:29:00 +0000 http://manofdepravity.com/?p=3872#comment-5552 Hey whaddayaknow...they said that music ministry director is in the top 10 of most stressful/underpaid job :) http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/108148/stressful-jobs-that-pay-badly?mod=career-salary_negotiation Hey whaddayaknow…they said that music ministry director is in the top 10 of most stressful/underpaid job :)

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/108148/stressful-jobs-that-pay-badly?mod=career-salary_negotiation

]]> By: Tyler http://manofdepravity.com/2009/11/12/missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-5551 Tyler Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:54:45 +0000 http://manofdepravity.com/?p=3872#comment-5551 I would say I could answer this with a simple answer (that is easier than writing a novel anyway)....conferences and the local church provide 2 very different things. A conference isn't called to operate like a local church body. My frustration with this concept all comes out of that. If they were trying to be something other than a church....I have no problems. But they are a church and a church functions in some specific areas that they are missing I feel. I would say I could answer this with a simple answer (that is easier than writing a novel anyway)….conferences and the local church provide 2 very different things. A conference isn’t called to operate like a local church body. My frustration with this concept all comes out of that. If they were trying to be something other than a church….I have no problems. But they are a church and a church functions in some specific areas that they are missing I feel.

]]> By: Tyler http://manofdepravity.com/2009/11/12/missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-5550 Tyler Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:50:49 +0000 http://manofdepravity.com/?p=3872#comment-5550 Totally agree with you. Rotating worship leaders is not a bad thing at all. Totally agree with you. Rotating worship leaders is not a bad thing at all.

]]> By: Levi http://manofdepravity.com/2009/11/12/missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-5549 Levi Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:49:13 +0000 http://manofdepravity.com/?p=3872#comment-5549 After reading some of the responses to the article from the congregants of the church being discussed, I would say that I agree with Tyler's assessment. It does seem that the reasoning and emphasis for this set-up misses the point of what worship really is. However, I think that it is impossible to judge motives/hearts for ourselves with certainty from just a couple short blurbs about the situation. On a different tack, I think what the article is highlighting is a different model for the management/staffing of our churches. I find this to be a good thing. I could see a rotating "worship leader" position being very positive - if we're talking about utilizing the gifts and callings of a greater portion of our community. It feels like what this church is doing is "bringing in a specialist" which, as you so aptly put it, misses the point! But, if a church were building up leaders from it's own community, and was thus giving a greater number of it's membership an opportunity serve and lead I would see this as a positive shift from a model where only one person is in this role. This is obviously a very different interpretation of this "model" than what is actually going on at this church (at least from what I get from the congregant's own comments), and in keeping with this blog posting's conversation I would return attention to the points Tyler brings up. And, as Jan said, "yes, yes and yes." Great points, Tyler! After reading some of the responses to the article from the congregants of the church being discussed, I would say that I agree with Tyler’s assessment. It does seem that the reasoning and emphasis for this set-up misses the point of what worship really is.
However, I think that it is impossible to judge motives/hearts for ourselves with certainty from just a couple short blurbs about the situation.

On a different tack, I think what the article is highlighting is a different model for the management/staffing of our churches. I find this to be a good thing. I could see a rotating “worship leader” position being very positive – if we’re talking about utilizing the gifts and callings of a greater portion of our community. It feels like what this church is doing is “bringing in a specialist” which, as you so aptly put it, misses the point! But, if a church were building up leaders from it’s own community, and was thus giving a greater number of it’s membership an opportunity serve and lead I would see this as a positive shift from a model where only one person is in this role.

This is obviously a very different interpretation of this “model” than what is actually going on at this church (at least from what I get from the congregant’s own comments), and in keeping with this blog posting’s conversation I would return attention to the points Tyler brings up. And, as Jan said, “yes, yes and yes.”

Great points, Tyler!

]]> By: @branford http://manofdepravity.com/2009/11/12/missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-5548 @branford Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:31:14 +0000 http://manofdepravity.com/?p=3872#comment-5548 i disagree with you Tyler. why? just to be a punk. no but seriously, i can see this working. is it ideal? IMO, no. but if the scope of the position is extremely limited and hyper-focused, and you're not trying to accomplish any of the things you mentioned above THROUGH THIS POSITION, then i don't see it being a problem. but absolutely, without a doubt, "worship != music" would need to be taught and emphasized, and your relational leadership would have to be strong from other visible leaders. also, sadly, there are a lot of churches that have worship leaders that only focus on music and do a poor job of relational leadership anyways, so perhaps this church is saying let's eliminate that job description (and potential for failure in that arena) and make up for it with other positions. and here's a question for you: (although i know it's not really apples to apples) if i go to conferences on a regular basis and sing communally with a bunch of strangers that i'll never see again, and the "worship leader" is a "star" like Steve Fee or some other random dude that wears too much hair gel... is that aspect of "worship" any less valid? ok, flame on. :) i disagree with you Tyler. why? just to be a punk.
no but seriously, i can see this working.
is it ideal? IMO, no.
but if the scope of the position is extremely limited and hyper-focused, and you’re not trying to accomplish any of the things you mentioned above THROUGH THIS POSITION, then i don’t see it being a problem.
but absolutely, without a doubt, “worship != music” would need to be taught and emphasized, and your relational leadership would have to be strong from other visible leaders.
also, sadly, there are a lot of churches that have worship leaders that only focus on music and do a poor job of relational leadership anyways, so perhaps this church is saying let’s eliminate that job description (and potential for failure in that arena) and make up for it with other positions.

and here’s a question for you: (although i know it’s not really apples to apples)
if i go to conferences on a regular basis and sing communally with a bunch of strangers that i’ll never see again, and the “worship leader” is a “star” like Steve Fee or some other random dude that wears too much hair gel… is that aspect of “worship” any less valid?

ok, flame on. :)

]]> By: Jacob http://manofdepravity.com/2009/11/12/missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-5547 Jacob Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:15:15 +0000 http://manofdepravity.com/?p=3872#comment-5547 True! I've got to view my role as a "worship pastor" and not a "worship leader." As far as I can tell, the Bible doesn't prescribe any church leadership positions as "rock stars." True! I’ve got to view my role as a “worship pastor” and not a “worship leader.” As far as I can tell, the Bible doesn’t prescribe any church leadership positions as “rock stars.”

]]> By: Amy http://manofdepravity.com/2009/11/12/missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-5546 Amy Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:16:30 +0000 http://manofdepravity.com/?p=3872#comment-5546 Excellent post Tyler. And I agree 100%. It just seems more, cold I guess, outsourcing their music leaders. Our church is about 100 people, some of whom are very talented, and yeah, they may get tired of doing it all the time, but you'd never know it. We are continually blessed by them and their gifts they share with us week after week. Excellent post Tyler. And I agree 100%. It just seems more, cold I guess, outsourcing their music leaders. Our church is about 100 people, some of whom are very talented, and yeah, they may get tired of doing it all the time, but you’d never know it. We are continually blessed by them and their gifts they share with us week after week.

]]> By: Josh http://manofdepravity.com/2009/11/12/missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-5545 Josh Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:15:56 +0000 http://manofdepravity.com/?p=3872#comment-5545 this post may as well have come right out of my mouth....but it didn't, so I say this: I agree 1 million percent. I've dealt with this personally with my previous church, and it still bothers me to this day. this post may as well have come right out of my mouth….but it didn’t, so I say this: I agree 1 million percent. I’ve dealt with this personally with my previous church, and it still bothers me to this day.

]]> By: Jan Owen http://manofdepravity.com/2009/11/12/missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-5544 Jan Owen Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:34:20 +0000 http://manofdepravity.com/?p=3872#comment-5544 yes, yes and yes. You cannot pastor a group of people you are not a part of. My question is this - would they EVER do this for the senior pastor position? Of course not. They understand that the senior pastor must spend time with people, must build into the leaders, etc. They could not do that if they came in, preached, and left. Why is a worship pastor treated any differently? yes, yes and yes. You cannot pastor a group of people you are not a part of. My question is this – would they EVER do this for the senior pastor position? Of course not. They understand that the senior pastor must spend time with people, must build into the leaders, etc. They could not do that if they came in, preached, and left. Why is a worship pastor treated any differently?

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