Living "Above Reproach" in a World Full of Jay-Zs and Rated R Movies

Great post. And it is a difficult question to be honest because a line does have to be drawn somewhere, but where exactly is that line?

With an artist such as Jay-Z it is also easy to totally miss some of the things he does. ’99 Problems’ is a song that most people would hear and automatically label it misogynist in tone because of the use of the word ‘bitch.’ Of course, anybody that listens closely to the song and knows what Jay-Z is all about understands he wasn’t using the word word in any context to describe women. To me, that is part of what makes up the genius Driscoll was talking about.

Going back to that line I was talking about, people often say that it’s hypocritical to lambaste movies with lots of nudity and sex but leave violent movies out of the mix. I think that is a bogus argument and here is why. Violence in movies is fake. Nobody is being hurt. However, when an actress takes off all of her clothes, that is her body despite the fact that she is playing a character. My personal opinion reflects the view that the only woman I should see naked is my wife. Therefore, I tend to avoid watching movies (or at least the scenes) that contain nudity. I also think of it in this way: “That’s somebody’s daughter on the screen.”

That’s just me.

Well, this is a mindbending post, so many angles you can take on it. Had that status been written by Jon Acuff or Carlos Whittaker, I don’t think it would be as big of a deal. When Mark Driscoll writes something, it tends to look like he is speaking from both sides of his mouth. Because Driscoll is so outspoken on holiness and living righteously (not saying that Acuff and Whittaker do not believe that but certainly don’t preach on it, they are more cultural commentators) it would appear that he was almost affirming Jay-Z, which would bring the response you see on the posts.
Driscoll put himself on a slippery slope but at least he is transparent. I think Lady Gaga, Alanis Morrisette and so many other artists are pure geniuses in their musical writing and lyrics. Try and deny that you could listen to a Lady Gaga song and go all day without humming it.
Last year I heard the Jay Z, Kanye, Rhianna trio song that is literally about anarchy. If you didn’t hear the lyrics, you would love the flow of the music. The new Eminem Rhianna song is great musicianship but watching the music video made me want to take a shower after because it left me feeling dirty.
Tyler, you bring up a key point, relationship. If you don’t have a relationship with someone, it is going to be difficult to hold any weight when you try to challenge their views. Even in my post about how Driscoll handled his “calling out of someone” I never write it thinking that Driscoll is going to take my views, I am simply sharing a view that he publicly shared with many people, so I am dissecting it with many people.
Of course, is there something to be said about what you make public and what you don’t?
Ok, I have fifty more thoughts but I don’t want this to be a blog post. Great thoughts Tyler, as always.

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A lot of the purity hounds who go after a Driscoll would have a field day on Jesus… Hanging out with prostitutes, check. Less educated, blue collar type friends most likely prone to some hard language, check. Tax collectors, the scum of society check. Drinking to the point the watchdogs were worried about him being a drunk, yup.

Reminds me of something Jesus said… It’s not what goes into the body that makes you unclean, but what comes out.

Is Pastor Mark loving the poor, caring for justice and practicing grace and mercy? Neglecting to do any of those things sounds much more reproachable than listening to a Jay-Z album.

I do not decide for them.

Because I am really good at placing my standards on others I have to constantly keep myself in check as to what I am thinking of others. That is the danger, placing unhealthy expectations on others without ever voicing them.

But it is far easier to judge others then judge yourself.

I think it is wise to have personal convictions on things like this, but the problem becomes when our personal standard becomes the “all people must also follow this as well” standard.

I loved how only hours later he also posted about a family who lost a child and he asked for prayer. People are still complaining about JayZ and few have even noticed something much more important.

Zuckerburg would love all things to be public, hence Facebook’s weird privacy policies, but I don’t see how that could truly be a healthy thing.

You do have a choice whether to post something like that on Facebook or not. Maybe he shouldn’t have considering it was on his fanpage. Celebrities do not need to share everything. It comes down to his choice to open himself up to that. He had to have known it was going to be controversial, my question to him would be, “was it worth it?”

What about accountability? While it may be ideal for one to judge him or herself, that is not human. How often do I attempt to avoid judging myself or rationalize to make my poor behavior seem justified?

It may be that the community of God (with reliance placed upon Scripture) is responsible for setting the standard of righteousness. And Paul had similar conversations based upon this very same issue (though manifested differently) in 1 Corinthians 10 in which he speaks to those about eating meat that has been offered to idols.

While we may be free of conscious because of the freedom we have found in Christ, that doesn’t free us from the responsibilities we have to one another.

This would definitely make a good conversation.

exactly, right Tyler? and the fact that they care more about whether or not Mark listens to Jay-Z than that is the reproachable thing to me. Reminds me of one of my favorite Jesus lines “you hypocrites! You strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!”

I used to be one of those people, until I learned how pointless and harmful it actually is.

What most people don’t understand is that there are two different kinds of judging. There is the judging that condemns (bad), and the judging that helps (good).

If we just point out faults in people (legalistic), we are no better than the pharisees. But if we don’t judge the fault in someone, then we can never help them.

For that reason, God has made it very clear to me (a very critical cynic), that I have no business tearing something or someone down, unless I have been given the ability to build it/him/her back up.

Whether Mark Driscoll listens to JayZ or not has no direct impact on my life. Also, I don’t have an audience in his life, so I don’t have the ability to help him… assuming that he needs help.

Opinions really don’t carry that much weight. Loving care and concern for another person does.

For this reason, I don’t share what I think about someone in Seattle.

I would say though, that he didn’t exercise wisdom in posting this online, nor keeping it up. The more time we spend talking about JayZ, the more time we could have been using to do something meaningful, like for forward the kingdom of God through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We really do need to put our minor arguments aside and continue in the work that we have been called to do.

Nice typos at the end Mr. Dean.

I can judge myself, so that I can help myself.

I fixed them for you

Great thoughts.

Hello Tyler,
this is my first visit to your site. Great post! I read some of the comments on Pastor Driscoll’s facebook page as well and it is really unfortunate how opinionated we can be as Christians.

I usually point most people here as my defense as to why we should not be so quick to point fingers at one another Matthew 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Be blessed and keep up the good work!
RiverAngel42

Tyler, I will speak to this from the stand point of a staff member and minister. I think the issue here is complicated but these things jump out at me:

1) Driscoll comes across (to me) as very absolute in his opinions. And he is very verbal about those. I believe that this set him up because, just as someone else mentioned, it appears as if he’s dead set against some things but fine with others. As a public figure who chooses to air what he does and says in a public forum, I believe it seemed very contradictory of him. While I hate that people were ugly, I’m not surprised that they had strong opinions. When you blast those who do yoga, women in leadership while touting mixed martial arts and Jay-Z there’s no wonder people might feel they have received mixed signals. Perception really is important.

2) Ministers are to set an example and remember that many will emulate our behavior because they believe that when we do something (and tout it publicly) it is a good thing to do. I could care less if he listens to it, although I wonder how wise it is, but I’m not sure it was the wise thing to do to share it. Not everything has to be shared with everybody.

It’s a good lesson to us all. As ministers, people are watching. We must be careful.

Obviously, a judgmental spirit is not loving. however, showing discernment and judging wisely is.

And I’d absolutely agree with your thoughts on some of Mark’s personal and theological preferences. Most of these people criticizing him though are just piling on. They aren’t a part of his church. The whole thing is just a mess. Which is why I really didn’t want to talk about it, and instead talk about something at matters a little. Hopefully some have been challenged to think about what their personal standards are.

Sorry but this article misses the whole point.

I thank God that people went off on him.

I used to listen to reggae music and still think that some of the people are talented but I refuse to listen to it for it I listen to it, I cannot tell someone not to listen.

Even if the bad words are bleeped out, what is the premise of the song is the matter at hand, what message are his songs sending on a whole?

So what do you tell your youth? “make sure you get the clean versions of Jay Z’s songs”. Do we then go through all of Jay Z’s song and decipher what are the ones that are ok? “A little leaven leavens the whole lump”.

I am learning to put away foolishness from my life and I am abhored that you would make light of things that are designed by satan to destroy the soul. Music that on a whole is self indulgent and that promotes sexual immorality, drunkeness and drug abuse etc.

And this what we are talking about is not about “our” standards it is Gods. Yes a Paster who would listen to Jay Z needs to check himself and grow up.

Mark Driscoll showed a real lack of wisdom in what he said and its good for him to get the backlash so he can learn from it.

Here he is talking about twilight, so these people are not geniuses also, does being agenius give people a pass?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZkHl0MK_ZdY

One more thing, when you publicly do something, you should get criticized publicly. One doesnt need to know him for he is bringing reproach on the Church publicly.

I am quite disturbed by this article, very disturbed. What good could this impart to anyone, whats it the point and how does it help someone to grow in holiness?

Psalm 119:37 Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things,And revive me in Your way.

Psalm 141:4
4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing,
To practice wicked works
With men who work iniquity;
And do not let me eat of their delicacies.

Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart,Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my strength and my Redeemer.

Colossians 3:8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.

Please, PLEASE reconsider your stance and this article!

Disturbed,

Paul

Paul-

And while you clearly think I missed the point, I’d say you missed my point. It’s ok for you to say that listening to Jay-Z is inappropriate, but it is not ok for you to then judge the heart of a leader because of it. The fault then lies with you, not with him.

As to your question about how this helps anyone…I hope it helps people like you reconsider the notion that condemning from a far does something good. If Mark is in the wrong, he hopefully has people around him hold him accountable that he trusts who would tell him so.

(sidenote: I have no idea how twilight became a part of this discussion, it really has nothing to do with anything I wrote about)

Not trying to stir the pot (or miss the point!) but I’m curious how Mark can say things like Avatar is the most satanic film ever and Jay-Z is a genius.

Honestly I could care less about imposing what *I* think about those two avenues of entertainment (films and/or music).

Just makes me wonder where the line is.

Great post, thanks for opening up the discussion!
Russ

This conversation is old and dare I say, stupid. Can we please be busy doing something bigger so that we don’t notice when a pastor says damn or listens to a rap song? Getting offended by missteps and calling people out is not what I was created for.

There is a kid in your community undergoing radiation for cancer while working at a grocery store (instead of being in school) as the sole provider of his family. Go get pissed of at that.

No doubt he has some weird “standards” as I’ve called them here. I’m not even trying to stand up for him, I just think its silly for people to criticize from a far.

I did my best to focus this post on what kind of things are appropriate or inappropriate for Christians and pastors. I never wanted to discuss whether it was good/bad for Pastor Mark to listen to Jay-Z. Sorry you feel it isn’t a worthy topic.

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In Mark’s mind, he’s probably somehow not inconsistent, in the same way that all of us indulge in inconsistencies from time to time.

What a great post, Tyler! I thought you were very objective and thoughtful in the way you chose your words. And respectful. I, to this day, cannot understand why I must live in a cocoon. There is no way I know of to shut out the world. Maybe moving to a mountain village high in the Himalayas?

And just who gave certain people the right to take things out of context? Whether it’s someones comments or even the Bible. We cannot discount any single person for what they said or did. Because I don’t believe it’s in my job description. I thought I was supposed to love everyone. Not judge them. I don’t have to like them or what they do, but I have to love them. Somehow. Through my actions. I need to be thoughtful in my words, too. But, I’m not perfect. I’m not always consistent. Thank goodness I’m not on a “pedestal” like Mark or Los!!

Tyler, first and foremost the bible says that the mouth speaks out of the abundance of the heart. So I am not judging his heart, it is he who put his heart on display to be judged. So your claim that anyone is judging from a far is a straw man and a cop out.

However, I never said he was a bad Pastor, but he did show a real lack of wisdom and if we cannot see that something is wrong. Even if you deem it ok to listen to Jay Z (Which is confusing since the man puts down Christianity and calls himself Jayhova)the bible says that while all things are lawful all things are not expedient, it also says that we shouldnt do things that would cause someone to stumble. What do we do with someone who is struggling to stop listening to this rubbish when they hear a prominent minister admit that he listens to Jay Z and even goes as far to call him a genius?

Do you not see the implications or is that you think you cannot speak due to your imperfections. He cannot just be corrected privately, he needs to apologize and be corrected publicy for the sake of those who he may confuse.

I am more concerned about the state of the Whole Church and not just the feelings on one man.

To me what you are coming with is emotionally and not biblically based.

What verse of scripture are you basing what you are saying off of, If may I ask? for all I have read are opinions in both your article and the many who are defending this?

@ Andrea there is nothing stupid about this discussion. Teh devil seeks to confuse and inflitrate the Church and he wil do it through sincere and genuine people.

(Twilight comes into this because he is passing judgment on it but fails to use the same discernment when it comes to Jay Z and his filth. If we are excusing people for genius sake then lets take it across the board).

Blessings on you!

My answer to that pastorbryan is that we should try to be as consistent as possible without excusing inconsistencies.

We should do this without condemnation, that I agree with.

Paul, my point wasn’t to excuse his inconsistency, but rather to point out that we all engage in cognitive dissonance.

PaulN, I’d be interested to hear your take on Paul quiting pagan prophets and lines about Zeus. Might that not lead someone to stumble because they were focused on something else? Did Paul’s quoting Epimenedes and Aratus serve as an endorsing of everything they wrote? I certainly hope not!

There is nothing wrong with saying that a man you disagree with is a genius. Because say what you will about his lyrical content (and I’m not a Jay-Z fan) but he is brilliant at what he does. Nothing wrong with recognizing that and appreciating his musical style as good. Now if Driscoll had said “everybody needs to listen to Jay-Z right now, that man knows everything there is about life.” I can see how that would be a dangerous endorsement, but to simply say that you are appreciating someones musical genius is not to say that you endorse everything about them. That’s a bit of a jump to conclusions.

But really, aren’t there better things for us to worry about than what sort of music a semi famous pastor is listening to? Issues of justice and mercy and faithfulness perhaps?

oops, quoting, not quiting

[...] again, Carlos asks a great question. This has to be my favorite post of last week.Living “above reproach” in a world full of Jay-Z’s and rated R movies.Can we answer extremism the way Christ did, by [...]