I agree..it’s pretty much what I expected. What it comes down to is the heart of the sinner. I am no different that Michael. I have lied and yes, the scale of the lie was not as grand, but grace abounds. I can only hope to see what God will do in his life as he attempts to turn it all around..that’s the exciting part. Unfortunately, the national news has gotten hold of this (it was on CNN) and that always does wonders for the whole Christians & hypocrisy thing. Ultimately, God is in control. There have been many cases of Christian “celebrities” that have failed their fans/congregations/etc BIG TIME, but in most cases that has made them stronger and given them more of a compassion and authentic story to tell about the grace and forgiveness of Christ. We’re all the same..we all need a Healer. That’s all I have to say about that.

I hear you Laura. I welcome this becoming a huge news story. I think this is a chance for Christians to put their money where their mouth is…to stand up and offer forgiveness in the same way it was given them. I’m saddened that I don’t think this has happened, but hopeful that it will.

I can’t even begin (I really have no right) to make my assumptions of how he is or what his condition is, but he looks to be starting a very long journey of healing. I pray for that.

Regarding the interview. I understand it was a secular news organization that did the interview, but I thought it was interesting that there was zero mention of getting right with God. It was all about him or others being shocked and hurt, but no mention of the Kingdom or how this has hurt the church at large. Even in Michael’s final statement, there was nothing about Jesus. That was odd to me.

He needs some serious assistance walking through this. You don’t go to the lengths he did to create this without some really big need or something.

Yes forgiven, but I think that will be the least of his concerns moving forward.

My heart literally breaks for him. Why we have to even think about forgiveness continues to baffle me. God is the judge. We are called to love. The consequences will be severe, I’m sure. So often Christians feel like they have to make it worse for the person so that they KNOW for certain that we are not happy with what they did. I pray… that everyone looks at their own hearts and thanks God for His immediate and full forgiveness.

Brent- Good point, that is odd now that you mention it. Because of the editing done I think I’ll hold back from becoming concerned about that. Like you said, it is a secular news channel.

Darin- You are right we do have a right to be concerned moving forward and forgiving him probably doesn’t help him move forward with whatever it is that he is dealing with. But let me say this…this story is a teaching opportunity. Christians are always known for judging and this is just another case of that (ie, the poll i talked about on my 2nd post on this). We have a chance to show others a great chance to how they can extend grace before judgment.

Dude – I could have hooked you up with the embeded html…a buddy of mine sent me a link with the code last night.

I am somewhat confused by several comments being made here. First, I would disagree that as Followers of Christ we are NOT sinners – as Christians we are to be “priest unto ourselves”, we are a “holy nation”, we are redeemed, we are to be “filled with light and not of the darkness” (what can light have with the darkness?), we are to serve only “one master” for we can not serve God and mammon. I am tired of hearing people put on a false sense of humility by somehow saying “Oh we are just sinners like Michael”. Yes, I was once a sinner, Yes I was saved by Grace (note the past tense here), But we are now called to be saints! The word “saint” means – Holy One, to be without sin. So let’s stop with this false sense of humility by stating we are no different than a guy who has deceived and conned countless thousands of people all in the name of God. Is this really a good definition of a Christian? If we are no different than sinners of the world then someone needs to define for me what a hypocrite is?

Indeed, we all need to pray and continue to love Michael. But just as any parent can tell you sometimes love can be tough. I have yet to read a Christian blog that has properly stated what the church is truly supposes to do in situations such as this. If we are not to “judge” those in the church I suggest we read 1 Cor 5 and explain to me that Paul must have gotten it all wrong because clearly he’s being “very judgmental” here. What about text such as these are these being “judgmental”??

Against an elder receive not an accusation, except at the mouth of two or three witnesses. Them that sin reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear. I charge thee in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality. (1Ti 5:19-21)

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which they received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to imitate us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; (2Th 3:6-7)

But as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. (1Co 5:11) (Note “Extortioner” is this how we could define Michael??)

One last point, I am all for this man repenting and finding favor with the Lord again, and if he has repented then we to restore our fellowship with him and allow him back into the church. But until then, we are to turn him and others like him out of the church. BTW – Don’t like the coverage CNN or ABC gives us Christians – then have Christians stop behaving like sinners and being hypocritical and stop giving the world fodder to bring an accusation against us.

Preston-

There is a lot I could get into there…you do make valid points on all fronts. I would say this. Michael has already dealt with consequences for his decisions and will continue to do so for the rest of his life. That is a fact. I’m not someone who has been given the authority to have to make a decision that would affect him. So with that said, I choose to love and forgive him. I think the consequences for his decision will play out and it isn’t my job to shout from the valley floor that he needs more consequences.

It should also be said that those verses are definitely in the Bible and meant to be given thought when processing all this. While I do recognize those verses I also think about the many verses on love, grace, and second chances. We need to find a way to balance those. But maybe it isn’t my job to balance those. Like I said above, I am not involved at all with decisions that would give Michael consequences outside of the ones he deals with internally. So I choose, from thousands of miles away, to offer grace and love to Michael. If I ever come into the position of having power with a decision involving Michael, the situation is different.

Tyler

I agree with your comments, we are not in his local fellowship and therefore we can not play a part in that process. My comments were not directed toward Michael necessarily,nor was I asking for more consequences in his situation – indeed that process has already started. My comments were in regards to what I was reading from others on the position of sin occurring within the body and the idea that we as Christ followers are sinful or presently sinning. It is this exact attitude that allows this kind of thing to occur within our churches. If people are taking such a weak stance against sin on something as simple as a blog, then what are they doing in their churches? For me this is the reason we are seeing more and more of this un-Christ like behavior – its that we have people who are too fearful to address it biblically and have an attitude that Christians are nothing more than “forgiven” sinners.

I named this blog with purpose. Depravity is right in the title. So I guess we disagree theologically on this. I do believe everything I do, outside of surrender to God, is unGodly. Therefore I am in constant need of forgiveness. I will agree that Michael was a leader who was called to be above reproach, something he failed at.

i voted to forgive him, thanks for the link…

Tyler – If Christians are nothing more than sinners who are just forgiven, then one has not been fully set free from sin – but rather just set free from the consequences. This would be the exact equivalent of a Judge (i.e. God) setting free a criminal back into society without first assuring he had been fully reformed and would never commit hideous acts of crime against society or the judge himself! If the Judge is doing nothing more than granting pardons (forgiveness) without first assuring society that the criminal has truly turned from crime toward benevolence, that Judge would be unjust and unloving – to both the criminal and his citizens. Repentance is not something God desires for us to do on a daily basis – but is a turning of the heart from sin once and for all.

Again how would you define a hypocrite? If Christians are in committing acts of sin daily then whats the difference between a sinner and saint? Ones is simply forgiven and the other ones not? One realizes he is a sinner and the other one doesn’t – then what about every sinner who has a guilty conscience?? When Jesus said I have come to set the “Captives free from sin” – surely he wasn’t meaning only the consequences, for what is worse – sin itself or the consequences? Beside, I have trouble with reformed theology such as “Total Depravity” as it begins mixing terms like “saintly sinner” or “Righteously sinful” or “Carnal Christian”. Again, Tyler you have proven my point with what is exactly wrong with the church today and why we see such hypocrisy – it all boils down to how a person defines sin and whether they believe they can truly choose to stop sinning out of their supreme love for God. Sin is a choice friend, not something we are born with.

“Repentance is not something God desires for us to do on a daily basis – but is a turning of the heart from sin once and for all.”

How’s that going for ya?

Guess I’m screwed…

Preston-

Again let me say that this is an argument I did not intend for this post, nor is it worth our time. I’ve spent lots of time developing my views on who God is and how we have relationship with him and clearly you have too. It is okay for us to come up with different opinions. It is not the opinions that matter to me, rather how they are presented. So while you may dismiss the notion of total depravity…I do not. And let me be the first to say I’m totally cool with that. This is not a theological difference worth dying on a hill for.

Brent

I guess I would answer you by using the following analogy. Let’s take marriage as an example here. I assume that when you met your wife you made a sacred vow to love here and only her. Therefore, a husband should rightfully stay committed and faithful to his wife throughout their marriage – as this would be defined as loving and whereas unfaithfulness would be considered unloving. But why?? I would personally answer this by saying it is because I love my wife and out of that love I have made a willful decision not to do anything that would bring suffering or harm to her – most importantly being unfaithful to her. I have willfully put her interests above any my own selfish desires – as again this would be the biblical definition of love.

So what’s that got to do with repentance? The bible defines repentance as a “turning of the heart or will”. When we marry our bride we are in essence turning our heart from ever loving another woman, to loving our wife solely and completely! This is the same as repentance towards God. Essentially, we are saying that we will turn our hearts to love him and only him, that we will surrender our selfishness and take upon his benevolence, that we will take upon his interest as that of our own. If sin is something God hates, then I too also hate sin as a direct result of my Love for Him.

Apparently, Brent you have a concept that its OK to cheat on the “Bridegroom of Christ” on daily basis and mock those who are committed to him in a faithful and devouted relationship.
Repentance is not something a faithful follower does on a daily baisis. Indeed there are times when we do stumble out of ignorance and need to repent – but as we grow in the knowledge of Christ these types of occurances should be more and more less frequent as we grow in sanctification.

To say Christians sins daily is really no different as saying “I’ll cheat on my bride on a daily basis”(I would imagine your wife would take issue with this??). If the church is the Bride of Christ and yet we have a theology that somehow legitimizes daily unfaithfullness to that same bride, then surely this is a doctrine of death! Total Depravity is unbiblical and will sadly allow many to legitimize their sinfullness – as sin is no longer their fault, but is simply nothing more than one bummer of a birth defect.

I’m not going to respond anymore Preston. This has little or nothing to do with my original question. Like I said, you hold a different theology than I do. And I’m fine with that. There is no need to argue our differences anymore. Blessings to you.

I think we just need to go out (weather is nice), have a couple glasses of margarita and relax a bit.

Yonas, how about a nice Mojito

Brent you only say that because Tam is a big fan of those

Ya, I know. I’m actually working a nice scotch right now

hopefully you are drinking it with the same pose as your avatar.

I was drinking Espresso in the avatar. You have to have a slightly tougher stance with scotch. I just don’t have my pinky up

Brent- I DID

It was not pure mojito actually..more like the one from Bacardi (hey, real man can drink fruity drinks too).

Forgot to add: No pinky.

Yonas, there is no shame in that at all

Tyler – I quickly see that it appears you have nothing more than a post-modern concept of truth. “Our opinions isn’t what matters, but how they are presented”???? Huh??? I am sorry but when Jesus said – I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, this wasn’t him simply stating his “opinion” of the truth – its the Truth! Theology does matter Tyler – so much that our very souls depend on it. Sad to see such nonchalant attitudes from such “Leaders of worship”. Looks like I am on my second strand of pearls here.

I assume you’re talking about the fruity mojito, not the pinky.

What’s the difference. Haha!

lol

Preston:

The only way to hold onto your definition of marriage or repentance is to minimize sin. If you define sin as these big outward acts, you might be able to fool yourself into thinking you are without sin. In the same way, if you define being unfaithful to your wife as only adultery, abuse or abandonment – you might persuade yourself that you are a husband without fault. Personally, I couldn’t stay there. Others tried to convince me that this is what the Bible teaches, but I could not get around the way that Jesus moved from the outward to the heart. To hate is the same as murder? To lust is the same as adultery? To covet is to lose faith in your provider God? To trust in riches is to displace God from his rightful place on the throne of your life? I recognized that I could not, with integrity, say that I never acted in a way that Jesus defined as hating my brother, never lusted, never coveted, and never trusted anything for even a moment for safety and security other than my God.

The perfectionists treadmill is a satanic device that will either throw you up against the cement wall as you stumble upon it and get crushed or you will define perfection as some “attainable” standar and look the other way when you violate even your own standard.

I am convinced that, except for Christ himself, we are all “simul justus et peccator” – at the same time just and sinner. To claim to be without sin is to call Him a liar. To minimize sin so that you may reach some standard in your own mind is deceiving yourself and obvious to anyone around you who knows both you and their Bible. We’re getting better because of His Spirit working in us, but we won’t be like Him until we see Him.

I found the story of Martin Luther and his struggles in the confessional to be quite helpful to me – I know I’m not what I should be and it is a heavy burden to think your relationship with God is based on your own performance …