Leaving

I’m going to assume that the music, regardless of someone’s opinion of it’s worth, is in FACT legitimate and Christ honouring if it was analyzed…

So with that in mind, I’d have a hard time saying leaving because of the music was a legit reason, but that’s for me personally.

Music is talked about a lot in the Bible (not necessarily in relation to NT church concepts), from loud to quiet, and when it’s coming from the heart I believe God loves it and longs for it.

But I don’t have a good answer to reconcile personal taste. In my own church, the music we do doesn’t reflect what I’d do myself…but I’m a music lover at heart, so when it glorifies God, I can see the beauty and worth in it.

That doesn’t answer the question really…I’m leaning towards “no”…will think more while I catch up on the weekend on here

Statistically, most people leave churches because they haven’t build relationship with anyone there. I think the biggest reason they will mention that people will leave because of music is because of a number of other reasons and the music is just the tip of the iceberg.

I would say that the Bible says a lot about music in the church. The psalms feature music highly, so do the Davidic passages. But, it also addresses music–which is a part of worship–and the same principles apply.

For a good reason to leave a church has a lot to do with the theology being preached and being reflected in the lives of the people.

is that a random pic? or of a church you know of?
It looks really like a church I love back in Scotland…

I feel that for sure! I had a similar experience when I came on staff at NH. It is tough to balance personal conviction/preference with feeling the wants/needs of others.

So you are saying “no” it is not a good reason right? I agree the Bible says a lot about music. I don’t think it says a lot about musical style within a local church context.

Totally random picture.

I guess that is where my main issue is. People love to cover up personal preferences of style with “Christ-honoring”. Example being, if hymns aren’t sung then the music wasn’t “Christ honoring.” So for me, I think that area can become pretty subjective.

I left a church once in part because of music.

I really just couldn’t keep my critical spirit in check when they started playing muzak-style tape tracks of songs like “As The Deer” and “I Love You Lord.”

As much as I disliked the change in worship from traditional hymns played on an upright piano, it would have been a lot easier to overlook if I didn’t have to keep answering the “are you new here?” question in a church of about a hundred people every Sunday for two years (minus summers and breaks because I was in college at the time).

What about people who leave churches because they are excluded from participating? Maybe sometimes the problem that arises isn’t that people have different prefered styles (although that does happen too), but that music in “church” is approached with this idea that it needs to be a polished performance. This mindset tends to prevent anyone except a few talented people from bringing something to share. Music in the church becomes regarded as something that most of the people simply see themselves as consumers of, rather than true participants. (and as such, it’s not surprising that people come and go like consumers shopping for what appeals to their personal taste)

What if anyone could bring a song, regardless of how well they sang, or played an instrument? Wouldn’t that allow for a much broader spectrum of styles, and make worshipping through music an overall richer experience? What if we laid down the idea of a tight, professional sound, and just allowed the emphasis to be the hearts of those worshipping?

I believe God is glorified most when someone is simple making music from a heart that is grateful for what He has done. Nowadays, it seems we look at the music itself as the vehicle that is supposed to bring people to the right heart condition, but I don’t see anything like that in scripture. Instead, music flows from where the person is actually at already, and is merely an expression of what the person is experiencing outside of the set “worship time”. When we turn things around, don’t we run the risk of trying to artificially manufacture a heart condition that may not be there to begin with?

I do think music is a valid reason to leave *a* church (not *the* church) and find another if the music is getting in the way of a person worshiping. For example, I can’t stand country music. It would be painful for me to attend a church that did twangy worship each work. All I’d be focused on is how much I hate country music, not how much I love God. Gratefully, we’re afforded the choice here in the US to find a place that feels like home…even if it takes a while. And if “home” undergoes a remodel, we’re free to find another one. -K

leave because of music, thats personal preference, not legitimate in my opinion but im fine with it; I think relational interaction is more important and more of the decision to stay or leave. Ive seen people use music as more of an excuse to leave a church because people are not so kind.

Sometimes people leave not necessarily because they don’t like the music, but more contemporary songs sometimes are more difficult to learn and the melody is not as easy as ‘amazing grace’ or the standard hymns.

Music is a very integral part of church ‘service’ and some may like it a certain style/way to help them praise or worship, it is just human preference. It goes both ways just like some people say hymns are more suitable for church songs…and some say Chris Tomlin songs are more touching.

I agree with Chaplain Andrews. People leave often times it’s more about relationship than the music. Some go to church just because they’re going through the motion, pick one or two other families, create their own little bubble and call it good and others may feel excluded in the process. Some may feel that they don’t fit in…and some people actually go to different churches because they like the sermon from church A, but they really like the songs from church B. It happens.

I disagree with Daniel about ‘anyone’ should be allowed to play in church…I can play a couple songs on the piano, but I’m not going to ask to sing just because I’m friends with Tyler…I’ll let the singing and the guitar playing to somebody else who are much more capable than me. It is great that when people have the heart of worship and praise, but this was the problem with Christian music in the past when it was always associated with bad musicianship, not as good as secular music, etc….while it is of course not about the musicians, GREAT Christian music is important and it can be a powerful tool enhance the ‘worship’ experience for Christians and more importantly to reach out to non-Christians.

Mighty long paragraph I just wrote, hope Tyler can find something good in there!

If you find yourself unable to enter into worship due to the music style, go ahead and worship at a different church. I think the way you go about leaving or staying at a church is what decides if it’s “Christ-honoring”. I think you can bring a lot of honor to Christ by realizing that a certain church isn’t your style and leaving if you feel the Holy Spirit leading you that way. But the leaving needs to happen without badmouthing the church and with the understanding that this is your personal preference and doesn’t make you right and those who stay wrong.
I believe that history shows that different generations are more drawn to whatever style they are most used to at a certain critical point in their life. I looked around our church on Sunday and saw a lot of people who had tears in their eyes as they sang “Blessed Assurance”. I’m willing to bet that they had some past experience where they song really ministered to them. Younger generations will feel the same way when they start singing “Blessed Be Your Name”. All that to say, I can understand why people might decide to leave over music style because it’s one way where people can feel like their faith experience is validated or not validated.

I think I understand the heart behind what you are saying…though I think there needs to be a level of excellence when it comes to worship.

Looks at the lyrics in the Psalms, everything was done with purpose. Putting someone in front of others to lead shouldn’t just be for anyone. We are to bring our best to God. We should want our worship and music to draw others toward God.

Yeah I can’t do country either. Good call there.

A level of excellence in worship…. Hmmm, I don’t find that anywhere in scripture. (that is if by “excellence” we are referring to how good we sound…)

Yes, it’s true that every word we find in Psalms (and the rest of scripture) is done with ‘purpose’, but that purpose flowed from the brokenness and gratefulness of the person writing them, not from an emphasis on sounding good in order to impress God.

I think that’s what is basically at the heart of this misunderstanding towards worship. You said, “Putting someone in front of others to lead shouldn’t just be for anyone. We are to bring our best to God. We should want our worship and music to draw others toward God.”

So are you essentially we should have the “best” people up front leading? We are to bring our “best” before God? Who is the “best” in God’s eyes? Where does this idea of bringing your “best before God” come from? I don’t see that as lining up with the very essence of the gospel. We have no “best” to bring before God, we have nothing to bring but our need, and our depravity (that word is familiar…) but we have Christ who IS the best, who brought His holiness down to us… THAT is why we worship in the first place, not because we’re trying to please God by sounding good…. As far as drawing others towards God, yes, we want our worship to do that, but really it should start with people seeing us “worship” by how we live our lives. Singing songs about Jesus doesn’t equate to worship, nor does singing along to lyrics that someone else has written do anything to produce true repentance. Sure, music can remind us of what God has done, but often we tend to rely way too much on music to be the vehicle which “guides us to God”… When that happens, music ends up being something that actually limits people’s understanding of “worshipping” God, (when it’s believed that we need an “excellent” worship band in order to really worship…) rather than the freeing, heart-felt form of expression it was designed to be….

I’d rather limit myself to banging sticks together, if it meant remaining free to worship through music without all the pretense, than to go back to believing that “real” worship only happens when we’re being “led” by talented musicians….

When people leave for the music, I doubt that’s all there is to it. The choice of music is generally the tip of the ice berg. If I’m dealing with a church situation where my congregation sits around singing hymns the entire time.. what are the odds that the majority of my church members are a bit old-fashioned?

We are all searching for something we can relate to. The beauty of Christ and his ministry is that while it was revolutionary, it was also relevant. There has to be a bit of compromise on both ends. This younger generation cannot and should not completely discount the spiritual journeys of our elders by wanting to do away with songs that have moved them, broken them, and lifted them to Christ. In that exact same way, the older generation within our church needs to be sensitive to the fact that our society is so ADD and if there is nothing that holds our attention, we are at risk of being easily distracted by other things.

So my point is that I don’t think it boils down to song or music selections on a Sunday morning. Instead, it’s the mindset that goes behind this division between traditional and modern.

That’s just what I think

Having watched this first-hand, it is difficult. Our worship team went from 10+ members to 3… which obviously changed the sound. Then the pastor’s son came home from college and started leading 1 Sunday a month. After a few months there were people who would either show up late that Sunday (missing the music portion) or would take that weekend to test out other churches.

Music is a powerful force, and if the style of music that is being led is not something that will strengthen your faith or edify you… perhaps you need to find somewhere that offers a different style. If the style that is being led is causing you to stumble, then I say emphatically that you need to move on before a seed of bitterness takes root and causes you to badmouth the church as a whole.

It that way, I say that yes, it is Christ-honoring if it will keep you from turning against your current church home. I would rather see someone leave “my” church to find a better fit than to have them leave “the” church after having their spirit quenched over time and anger and resentment take up residence.

Personally, music is a huge part of choosing a church home – equal with teaching. We have tried out churches where the music was amazing, but the teaching was lacking, and we have tried out churches where the teaching was spot-on, but there would have been no way I could have sat through the music week after week. We stayed at neither. We have been blessed to find churches that had both, and that we could then attend and begin to build relationships within.

Having said that, I will confess that there has been a time that I have considered leaving a church that we had amazing relationships within because of the music… and I was a member of the worship team. THAT is a hard pill to swallow. Fortunately, it was worked out in the end, but it was a tough few months for me.

Some great conversation. I would agree that many people blame music for the reason they leave the church (at least in my experience), but it is often much deeper than that. Even knowing the reasons are deeper, it’s sometimes hard to hear that as a worship leader.

You’re right in that the Bible doesn’t speak much to good reasons for leaving a church. I wonder if some of that is because it really wasn’t an option during that time. After all, you couldn’t really go down the street to another fellowship if you didn’t like the current one. However, while the Bible may not say what are good reasons for leaving, I think we can glean ways we shouldn’t go about leaving – i.e. don’t slink away, don’t badmouth, don’t be critical, etc.

In a culturally diverse society, there nothing wrong with different expression of music in different churches. The problem comes when we start claiming that one expression is better than another (as long as it is all focused on Christ). So, I’m okay with someone choosing a different church if the style is better as long as it’s not heretical.

One interesting thought: I’ve been taking an online course regarding worship history through the ages. One of the points that was made is that one reason music isn’t talked about much in relation to the New Testament church is because music was an established part of the Jewish worship culture that the early church was based off of. It was just part of what they did.

Thanks.

My main point here, Daniel, is that people need to operating in the body of Christ within their giftings. I don’t expect each person to be gifted musically. And I think that the people who aren’t gifted in music should not be up in front leading others in musical worship. That is the only thing I’m saying.

I totally agree that rarely does a person or family leave a church only over music. But I do think music almost always plays a role.

I believe music is an important part of what brings someone to a local church… I’d say on par with teaching style. People rarely get criticized for leaving a church because a pastor preaches with a certain style (exegetical, topical, etc) so why should music be any different?

I think there’s also at least two different groups of people we could be talking about here. First, there’s the casual church attender. Maybe they attend every week but they don’t feel like they really have any input or buy-in to a paticular church that’s just where they “go.” I feel like that person needs to go find a church they like! They need to go someplace where they enjoy worship services and are excited to be there.

The second group are those who have already committed to a church. Maybe they’re members or maybe they’ve just put in the time and effort to build relationships. Usually these people feel it’s time to leave when something changes–a new worship pastor gets hired, the church’s vision for outreach changes, or (gasp!) the tech team starts using Propresenter. I feel like this group needs to have more than “I don’t like it” to justify their leaving. They need to examine their motives and their calling to see what God would have them do. Are they called to invest in this community? If so, they should stay even if it doesn’t fit their liking. I love hearing the testimony of people who “put up with” stylistic differences because they feel committed to the ministry that’s taking place. It’s selfless and commendable.

Why do we assume that there should be anyone “leading” others in musical worship? Where does that come from? Who gets to decide who is “musically gifted”? Do we really believe that those who can’t sing or play instruments as well as we can have no business worshipping God through music? Or is it just that they shouldn’t be “up front”? I hate the whole d*#@ idea of having an “up front” in the first place, it’s so bogus….

There are plenty of references in the Bible of people appointed to lead the musical aspect of worship. There are TONS of verses in 1 Chronicles that talk about the appointing of gifted musicians. Read your Bible dude, and lose the critical attitude…

no

and it saddens me that people do it anyway.

people attach “God-said” “Christ-honoring,” keep going the w/ that list…to EVERYthing and ANYthing when they they’re not happy or not getting their way. yes there are many of these people in the church today and it’s sad but true. whether it’s music, the teaching, whatever, someone will always find something wrong w/ something….and it’s usually just a preference issue. but those are the people you can’t let get to you. take what they say or even think w/ a grain of salt and move on. it’s unfortunate, but it’s reality

wow, i’m a bit late in the game today!

on musician-ship: i agree. certainly worship is about the heart of the person, more so than anything else. but in a setting where music is presented, it should a group of people who can use their gifts and talents that are God given. certainly as a musician, i have a great appreciation and often pay attn to the style being presented, but that goes back to preference. nevertheless, since i have something an ear for it, it’s more appealing in a worship service to me to hear folks who are able to do so well.

Totally agree Ash

I’m answering w/o reading other comments first. People that leave a church because of the music are selfish. It doesn’t please them, so they leave. I don’t see how that in any way honors God.

That being said, I think there should be a balance. In the case of music in the church that doesn’t necessarily mean equality of numbers, but inclusion and not exclusion of different genres. Hymns and old chorus’ have value, but the life is in the new. Honor and esteem the heritage and don’t discard it, but it is not where growth is. Some of the old chorus’ that some cling to today were disliked when they were first introduced too, now many rank with the hymns.

Sing a new song unto the Lord.

I guess my answer comes across pretty black and white and it shows the nerve it hits from personal experience. I went back and read some of the comments and realize I’m speaking from assumptions not everyone has. For several years there’s been a battle over music in my church.

We do a variety of styles and do include some hymns. It’s incredible to do a hymn on a Sunday and hear on the same day someone complain that we never do hymns. You want to ask if they were even in service.

Then there is the complaint that the music is too loud. That’s a cover for it being the wrong style. Proof? Same complainers about the volume love it when the deaf guy gets on the organ, cranks the volume beyond the sound man’s control, and plays hymns.

This is my point of reference when I say people who leave for this reason are selfish and that is not Christ honoring.

My church averages 5-10 new converts a month, and it’s not specifically seeker sensitive. I don’t know if that’s normal or not, but it would be interesting to compare with a church that does hymns predominately. Are there many “traditional” churches that average 900-1,000 weekly? Or are they smallerl?

I think the Lord puts us in our church homes, if we’ve listened to him, and just like any family things are not always rosy. Sometimes when things are tough, that’s exactly why we’re there, either for ourselves, others or both, and if we leave for our own reasons, we’re disobedient, and miss what God was trying to do in and/or through us.

I think it just reflects their misunderstanding about what worship is. They’ve made it about themselves … and not about the object of their worship. That said, once they’ve become so fed up with the style of music that they want to leave… I think it’s healthier for them to leave than to stay and be complainers. Ultimately, though, there will be something at the next church … or the music will change there, and eventually they will have to leave again … because they think the problem is the style of music … instead of their own hearts. If we could learn to worship in a variety of styles … we would be better served, and in that way the modern church does us a disservice by saying this generation only likes this style of music, and so we should only do this type of music.

Here is a good reading regarding this kind of thing:

http://www.theworshipcommunity.com/too-practiced/

What a wonderful topic.

Generally the worship is a reflection of the people…and if we’re singing “thy word” with all of our heart and meaning it…then awesome.

I went to an Anglican church in DC and fell in love. It was all a style that I didn’t expect to like or love…but it was done with heart…with meaning…and I was sold.

The church I grew up in, which my parents still attend, played a track of some awful christian ballad as they passed the plates the other day. The worship band was pretty dated and cheesy…the choir is getting older and sounded pretty…old lady.

Instead of being critical (which I have been for years) I sat back and soaked it in…it was all so sincere. I felt that. I thought…”here these beautiful people are…making some noise unto the Lord…and it’s beautiful”

…and I let my voice join in. And smiled and looked at the stained glass and felt grateful.

SO I think it comes down to who the community is. I don’t think anyone in their right mind should leave a community that is loving and sincere. If the music is bad…then my hunch is that it’s annoying noise of a place that one doesn’t feel loved or seen…and so it is for that reason that one isn’t able to connect the awful music to “endearing” or “worthy”

Buy a Chris Tomlin CD and enjoy the old ladies in the church choir…or the James Taylor wanna-be on the guitar each week.

Awesome comment. I have nothing to add.