Rob Bell: Differing Views .2
Here is what I had originally started writing several weeks ago to support my opinion on Rob Bell (a lot has already been said in yesterday’s post):
First off. I have a lot of respect for Rob Bell and his ministry through books, videos, tours, and mostly his church. He has a strong desire to find a way to reach my generation in a way that few and far between have. And beyond his passion in reaching us, he has a message that resonates with many my age. So let me clear up the fact that many of you probably think I have some sort of disdain for him. I do not.
Where I am troubled is that he has become a voice for Christians around the world, especially Christians my age. Bell has been in TIME magazine, has been called the next Billy Graham by the Chicago Sun-Times, and the easily one of the most well known Christian leaders in the world.
Here is what I think I really need to say instead:
After talking with Ashley I realized that I did sound ignorant to criticize him without have read his books or listened to his messages. So on the way to Chicago last week I listened to a message he spoke on April 19th, 2008 titled “One Mind.” I have no doubt it was a “God thing” that I listened to this message as I prepared to get ammo for the support of my anti-Bell stance that I put out there in yesterday’s post.
His message was on Philippians 2:1-3. I knew from the very beginning I was in trouble. Trouble meaning God was ready to teach me a lesson. He (Bell) paraphrased these verses by saying this: “If Christ means anything to you, be like-minded and love one another.” Obviously this comes off as naive, yet humans are inherently the same today and I doubt that Paul was trying to sound naive.
Bell concludes that Paul is comfortable with a variety of convictions and beliefs within Christians and that we probably hold to our beliefs much to tightly. He ends with Ephesians 2:14 and says that what we have in common must trump what we don’t have in common.
So let me start with this: I’m sorry. I’m sorry to you, the reader, because I have been more about what we don’t have in common than what we do have in common on this blog and in my conversations with many. And I am sorry to you Rob Bell (and I’m quite certain you will never read this), for pointing out the little things that bug me about you, rather that cheering on the impact you are making on my friends, Christian and non-Christian. Ironic it is, that I decided to listen to Bell’s message in order to use it against him, but in turn God used Bell to speak to me and my faults. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, He tends to show up in the weirdest of ways.
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Tyler Braun.
That’s good stuff. The discussion yesterday was…interesting. I really love what was said about holding on to our theology too tightly. In the ministry I work for, you can’t do that because we work across such broad denominational lines; purposefully so. While many of us have very strong theological beliefs, we have to keep them under control because we could be working on a joint effort with someone who could be the direct opposite of us on some beliefs (think reformed vs. fundamental or PCA vs. Baptist).
That said, I appreciate your post this morning. Good stuff. I’ve had to learn quickly that God can teach us through a variety of people in a variety of ways. Although when it comes down to it, some people do it for us and some people don’t.
Tyler,
Don’t recant quiet yet. Obviously you erred on slamming him before reading his material. Rob Bell questions the virgin birth of Jesus and says it was not necessary for Jesus to be born of a virgin. You are RIGHT to question his theology. We are commanded in Scripture to “test the spirits” (meaning doctrine and teachings).
Mark Driscoll spoke at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary last year and addressed the emerging issues and named Rob Bell as a source of heretical doctrine. I blogged a little about it (title “Mark Driscoll on the Emerging Church”), but you can listen to the entire message here (http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/driscoll_sebts_092107.mp3).
We can adamantly disagree with someone’s theological in a loving and truthful way.
Billy-
I don’t think Bell is a heretic. I have listened to that entire thing and I have a lot of respect for Driscoll and I thought he made some great points during that talk but I go back to what I said in the post. Let’s keep the main thing the main thing. Tony Jones emailed me after I ripped on him and Bell and said I wonder if this whole emergent/emerging dialogue will be looked at by our grand kids as something that made a difference in our world, or if it is just in fighting. While you want to continue to pile on Bell…I encourage you to take the high road.
Tyler, I am not piling on, just stating a fact that I stated months ago – denying the virgin birth is a heretical teaching. He is in great error if he maintains that position. I am taking the high road – it is offensive to me that you insinuate that I am not taking the high road by stating the truth about someone’s teaching. That is very postmodern of you. Have a nice day.
Certainly we shouldn’t feel badly for questioning someone’s doctrine, but I think you’re right that focusing on what we have in common first is a good idea.
Billy-
Here is the fact. Bell questioned the virgin birth and then a page later he said that he didn’t believe that. So I took it as him trying to make a point. If Jesus wasn’t a virgin birth I don’t think it effects our belief in him, but it is challenging the inerrancy of the Bible which is troublesome. So for you to say put around that Bell is denying the virgin birth because I think it is pretty clear that he is not. I am not trying to stand up for Bell in all ways, but for you to come at him when I’m posting about the importance of caring more about what we have in common is a little weird to me. Call me postmodern or whatever, I’m just trying to be Biblical. Thanks for your thoughts man.
About the virgin birth thing (BTW, not the Immaculate Conception – see my post about it here: http://seth.heasley.net/blog/?p=624), I think there’s wiggle room. When I read Isaiah 7 and 8, I can’t see how that prophecy wasn’t fulfilled in chapter 8. So, did Matthew pull in Isaiah 7 to explain why the virgin birth was significant? Maybe. I don’t see Isaiah 7 as an obvious prediction of the virgin birth, any more than I see Hosea 11:1 as a prediction of the Holy Family going to Egypt. I’m not sure Matthew intended to imply them as predictions, but rather typological references to Christ. I think. I still find that kind of thing confusing. Is it a question of inerrancy? Or is it more about understanding what the Bible actually teaches? Can I stop with the questions? Who knows?
I agree with Tyler, I know that passage he is refering to: if you read his passage on “virgin birth”- he isn’t necessarily denying- He’s bringing faith to attention and how we wrestle…and even doubt (All Christians alike) the practicality of some of the biblical stories and references.
But I appreciate Tyler, the words that you wrote. You made a decision to do something, even if it was for the wrong intention and you came away with something learned. I think we all do that. But what I love is you started the conversation in the first place. And as I’ve made comment before- that is what Bell actually says we should do. Challange it, wrestle with, make decisions about it and not just rely on everything we hear.
I have always thought that a book or a teaching or an idea that can REALLY get people talking, is worth it, is a good book, is an interesting teaching. It makes community and perspective.
Tyler,
One of my favorite posts ever from you. Love your humility paired with your intellect. Proud to know you.
Jay
Ash and Jay- Thanks for your kind words. My hope is that post #2 will stick on people’s minds and not necessarily the first one.
Tyler,
I think it’s great that you reconsidered your position and decided to see for yourself what Bell is saying. Very commendable. Even more commendable to admit your error and ask for forgiveness.
B
B4dguy-
Thanks. I don’t know that my view on Bell has changed a lot, but I am definitely trying to be more open with him and also keeping in mind what I said in this post. What we have in common should be more important than what we don’t. I think a lot of us could use that reminder.
This might be a different conversation … but at what point can people agree to disagree when it comes to faith matters?
I find it interesting how people will openly blog about a person/belief but then let popular opinion sway them. I know I have done it myself, but my reasons were because I didn’t want to look like the schmuck with a different view than anyone else (hello pride), or kept a view just to be ‘different’ from others (well hello again pride).
hey randy…i just think it’s a choice. i know that i’ve posted several things where my readers post comments that i very much disagree with. but sometimes, too, when a person is willing to support their comments w/ logical evidence, it’s not necessarily giving into that opinion, but just being willing to “see” another perspective, where that person might be coming from and adhere that they have a point. again, it doesn’t mean you have to concede to anyone’s particular view…shrug.
Tyler, while I have also not read any of Bell’s works, the thing I want to say to you is that I do admire your attitude. I have often said that we as Christians are so busy playing defense that we quit playing offense. In other words, we do focus too much on correcting and pointing out what we disagree with one another about (I think sometimes out of great fear and not always from a godly motive) and too little time in loving one another and reaching the world for Christ. I do agree that we need to guard our hearts, but sometimes I think we guard our opinions much more valiently than our hearts! Thanks for sharing your journey with us.
After you’ve been in ministry for a while (I know you are MUCH younger than me if you were in 9th grade 9 years ago!) you will experience being misunderstood and slammed for it. It will break your heart. You will become – i hope – more and more compassionate as you walk through the rigors that can accompany sharing your heart and journeying with Christ. You will become – again, I hope – more and more humble as you learn from experiences you never imagined and people you never dreamed possible. God uses many vehicles and we can’t always explain why.
I will quit preaching and simply say that I do admire your willingnes to learn from this situation (if nothing else than read things before you make a decision) and to share that part of your journey with us.
I always admire when someone can come back to the table and say “ya know, maybe I was wrong, forgive me”.
I’m not even siding with whether it “IS” or “IS NOT” good doctrine, as I’ve not read enough or listened to enough to judge that .. but I can judge that I see the humble, heart of Christ in this post!
Jan and Fred- I really appreciate your kind thoughts. Thanks for focusing more than this post than the previous. That is really my desire.
For some reason I feel like what’s going on here is much like the frog in a pan of water on a stove, before too long the frog doesn’t realize he’s being boiled alive!
First, let me say I do NOT believe Rob Bell is a Christian nor is much,if not any of his teachings are in line with that of the bible. I have study Rob’s teachings for some time and Rob is an advocate for Post-modernism and believes “Truth” is relative. He denies fundamental truths of scripture and has a very distorted view of the atonement of Christ. Furthermore, Rob teaches a form of Universalism and Monism which by the last time I searched the scriptures was considered a false teaching. Before we all jump on Rob’s “bandwagon” here let’s do a little more searching of what it is Mr. Bell is really all about. Before we take on the Rodney King School of Diplomacy here: “Can’t we all just get along” – I suggest we be courageous Christian’s here and call a spade a spade and reject false teachers as instructed by the Bible.
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/rob_bell.html
http://www.apprising.org/archives/rob_bell/index.html
Tyler,
Sweet! I love that we can be open to the word of God! Maybe we don’t have everything figured out, and if we are teachable God can mold us into the people he wants us to be!
Peace
Tony
Billy,
Dude you need to take Tyler’s advice here and read or listen to Bell yourself before you declare something as truth. Bell never says that the virgin birth didn’t happen in Velvet Elvis. Read the book, I promise you will see another side of Bell than what you have heard! You can not just listen to a guy like Mark Driscoll and then repeat what he says without knowing something as fact for yourself? I have read the book, and I know what piece of the book your referring to, and I think the criticism from Driscoll and others has taken Bell out of context. Get the book and read it, you will not be sorry and then you be the judge!
Peace
Tony
i appreciate the apology. you read the word and stuck to it over the popularity of criticism. We are a critical generation speaking far too often and listening far too little. You could have easily had a “record viewing post” pointing out his shortcomings, all while neglecting what your heart was saying to you. May you always listen to the spirit and continue to speak life to those around you.