It is that time of year. 4th of July week and weekend. Flags come out from the woodworks and get placed everywhere, including all over churches. I want to know one thing:
What comes to mind when you see these pictures?
How does country and Christianity mix for you?
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Tyler Braun.
Hi Tyler – I’ve been enjoying your blog like a fly on the internet wall, but I just had to share this link I found a few days ago. It is a discussion between Shane Claiborne, Greg Boyd, and Chuck Carlson about the role of politics within religion and vice versa. Pretty thought-provoking stuff.
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/evangelical_politics/soundseen_npc.shtml#slideshow
Personally, when I see the pictures, I get a conflicting feeling: partly patriotic and partly religiously inspired. Good feelings I suppose, but I think it’s dangerous to tie the two very closely together.
I think the idea that everyone says “God Bless America” and has all the bumper stickers is kind of absurd. I would guess a good percentage of them have these in response to the war overseas. Most don’t think about how blessed we already are though…There are soldiers who fight for us, freedom of speech, Starbucks on every corner, and the safety of going wherever you please whenever you want.
The top picture I think of the flag that flew outside my building overseas because it looked just like that with the sun shining through it. The bottom picture unfortunately is kind of humorous to me because to me, it says that we are still hoping that God bless us when he already has.
I dunno…some random thoughts that probably don’t make sense haha
i don’t agree with war, but i do have respect for the many men and women that give themselves to what they believe in.
HOWEVER… i am VERY uncomfortable with the mix of country with church. i cringe every time i see a “Patriotic Sunday” at a church. a friend of mine works at a church that is having a very well-known military leader + a Toby Keith song by the choir. not cool.
faith and patriotism has become so intertwined, and i don’t think it’s healthy for a church to imply devotion/allegiance to God AND country. recently my son came home from church reciting the entire pledge to the American flag. personally, i have major issues with my 4 year old pledging allegiance to a country, muchless a flag.
when we mix faith and patriotism, we blur the lines and convince ourselves that the causes of America are also the causes of God. we justify wars using “God,” our consumerism and capitalism become the “Christian” way, and we see our country as “Christian nation.” blurring the lines is really dangerous.
personally honoring soldiers = love it…many great men and women.
mixing Jesus with American flags = dangerous.
Andy-
I loved that discussion with Shane, Greg, and Chuck. It was during the National Pastors Conference in San Diego in February.
I blogged out it here: http://manofdepravity.com/2008/04/22/speaking-of-faith-a-multi-generational-discussion/
Evan and Aaron-
In no way am I disagreeing….I think the normal idea behind it is that we are in a country that allows us to worship freely so having a flag and being patriotic thanks God for that. At the same time it honors the men and women who fight for that freedom.
So how can we still honor country and freedom in church and still remain focused on Jesus alone?
Wow, I wouldn’t no where to start. This could be an all night discussion. Maybe we should talk about this when I’m up there next month.
I really struggle with this. I am learning everyday, what “the Kingdom is here” means and everyday that I understand it more, I struggle more an more with “my country vs. your country”.
I am with everyone here that has spoken to respecting and appreciating what we have and the men and women that have worked hard for us to have it. people like Evan and my good friend Haley, my Dad, Grandpa and so many I know that have sacrificed for this country. But, my country i only as good as who my country is for others. That’s up to me and others who see our faith born out in action.
Where the blur beings to happen and I begin to struggle with my thoughts are when it comes down to my faith and how it is played out in politics, the economy and relationships with others. there are a lot of opinions about this and mine would be opinions as well, but I struggle with the thought that the US is blessed by God. Cause when our stock market crashes or terrorists attack, it’s all of a sudden God disciplining us. I just can’t see how that train of thought lines up with scripture. Scripture doesn’t really teach us about country or creed, except to be followers of Christ.
Whatever my stance and others are in this, I see us as a nation needing to improve our relationships with other people and countries. We need to stop feeling that we hold some sort of leadership in Christianity, except that we have many resources at our disposal that can truly bless others. We need to step up as Christians and make this happen. And, I don’t think our government has any place in this…unless they want to join us.
along those same lines brent.
in the old testament there is a lot of talk about God’s wrath on a specific people, on a specific nation. granted that is within the context of Israel and the older covenants (Abrahamic, Noahic, etc), but there are plenty of verses that give people ammo for God doing something specifically to a country (blessing/cursing). i, totally disagree with this idea that we can decipher God’s will when something good or bad happens as being God’s blessing or cursing for something we have done.
I asked my OT prof about this when people claim that 9/11 was God’s wrath on America’s sin. He said that when we try and prove this it becomes our inerrant interpretation of Scripture at stake, which is wrong. I think that makes a lot of sense. we cannot set up ourselves to have our interpretation as perfect.
Tyler, true. Our interpretations are just that. I struggle with America saying we have THE interpretations.
It would be really cool to have the resource you have with your prof’s to talk history and interpretation. I definitely think the God of the OT is the same God of the NT, but the covenant has changed. Jesus is here. When Jew and Gentile were welcomed into the New Covenant, everything changed and I believe we became one “country” under Him.
With all that said, I celebrate the 4th. I appreciate the place I live. I appreciate those that have served to let me live here. I celebrate the culture here as I would celebrate the culture somewhere else. But, “to who is given much, much is required”.
I would be interested to see whether the Christian perspective would change after studying a bit about the pre-independence conditions, who it was that declared independence, what they declared independence from and what independence led them into. Public school doesn’t give critical treatment to the era and I think we grow up with a kind of blind sense of what this holiday is about. We have a favorable view of the word “independence” but the question remains, was it the right (best) thing to do at the time? Was it about rights or entitlements? Was it about equality or elitism? What it about destiny or opportunity? Did our country actually need to seed itself in war? Is our foreign policy a hold out from the good old days of independence?
Just wondering.
And then of course, there’s YOUR question. I could get really snarky, but since this is my first day on your super fine blog, I’ll refrain. Peace out!
yeah we have strayed a bit from the original question, that is my fault, but no big deal. those are valid questions chris, for sure. brent i think you are dead on.
Hey guys,
Interesting topic for sure. I don’t know if God blesses “America” as a country or not, in the way that some people mean that phrase. There is much I don’t know about how God views America now, vs when it started etc etc, vs the rest of the world, others countries.
I know that increasingly around me in the media etc, that America is looked at negatively for many reasons, some valid, some not. I have noticed that in some ways its almost hip or cool to not like our country. I listen to hours and hours and hours of both sides of the debate about how horrible America is verses how great America is. Why there is so much I don’t pretend to know about, I do know what I wish for, as I raise my daughters in this country.
*I hope and wish that God will bless America. I pray that if there if something America can do in action, and be in leadership, that that will happen, and that God will bless us for it, for our obedience as a nation. And by bless I mean whatever God means by the word bless. I don’t want this only for America, of course I hope He blesses other countries as well. But I do have selfish intersts for the country that most likely my dauthers will grow up in.
*I hope and wish for Christian leadership. I would go to the wall for a leader of our country that was and said he was sold out for Jesus Christ, and that all the good we want to do and be as a country, was because of Him. I know that would be nothing short of a miracle because of a thousand reasons of where we are at, but I still hope for it.
*While I am on board with many of the global concerns/issues that are rising to the top of the consciousness of many, I am definately perplexed about the issues of morality that can be legislated, and how that should affect my vote. So much is made of the church and politics remaining seperate, but the reality is that picture of the flag and the cross is an accurate picture of how many things the government is a part of every day that are morale issues, that decide our countries general direction on literally how we behave as a nation. I understand that many people are switching which morale views are the most important when it comes to voting. I am definately torn by this, and wish we could have it all. I wish we could care for the poor in Africa, in the name of Jesus, and stop killing babies here, in the name of Jesus, under a leader who was bold enough to say it. It seems like while increasingly the cross needs to stay out of the flags way in our country, the flag can get in the way of the cross anytime it wants. I wish and hope for a country for my daughters where the flag lives in the shadow of the cross.
wow, this is the single longest comment I’ve ever left on a blog! Thanks for the blogalogue Tyler!
Jay, you have some very thoughtful thoughts. I too would be desire God’s blessing for our country for my kids as well. As you have said, though, I don’t even know what Him blessing would look like.
One of your thoughts is where I struggle with Christianity and Politics. It is inevitable that my faith is going to play into how I live my life, the decisions I make, choices I consider and in turn the votes I cast. How can it not. But, why am I needing to consider legislation that would take my faith to vote? Why is the government so overreaching into our lives that faith plays out in politics?
This is where I struggle with faith and politics. I don’t believe you can truly legislate morality. I don’t believe government should be enforcing Christian principles or for that matter Buddhist, Muslim, etc, principles on people’s lives. They should get back to what they are to do. Manage resources and defend our country.
I understand I am overly simplifying a massive thought process here, but I struggle with it. I read a friends post today that talked about his concern over being a “proud” American. I understand his concern. I am not too proud of the country, in many ways, we have become.
Jay you said this, “It seems like while increasingly the cross needs to stay out of the flags way in our country, the flag can get in the way of the cross anytime it wants.” I do struggle with the idea of our government needing to enforce Christianity on others. With that said, I pray as well for a Godly leader that can properly lead and manage the resources (including the military) of this country in an amazing way. I am skeptical though, Politics are politics. I would hope for a country where the government is a by product, not a leading force.
Brent,
Awesome thoughts man. Ya, I agree, ultimately I choose my morality before God, not the government, but I also feel that what the government does legislate is not only a reflection of the countries morales, but also can help push what a generation of people will care or not care about, especially in today’s society where so many homes are broken and there aren’t parents at home guiding and teaching their children. The government then is a sense has more parenting power by what is taught at schools, universities, and what becomes law or not.
Love your last statement. That would be awesome.
Jay
Jay, I struggle with us “pushing” our Christian morals and values on people, but I also understand that it is inevitable that we will vote and lead that way as Christians. Not necessarily “pushing” it on people, but definitely influencing the culture we live in.
“The government then is a sense has more parenting power by what is taught at schools, universities, and what becomes law or not.”
This is what drives me to be an active Christian participant in my community. I understand that Godly principles and morals will always be good for the community, but they do not. But it seems the Christian community has become a very quiet voice, so their are others that are speaking for us. The sticky part is either to become a silly radical right wing group that enforces everything on everybody, or to become those that actually extend the love of Jesus to others and show our world the Godly principles and morals that we say we believe in.
knowing jay pretty well and brent moderately well, i think both of you see mostly eye to eye on this. not that you can’t continue the conversation…i’m just sayin…ya know…
Tyler, I would see the say the same thing.
Of course, it would have been better had you said, “i’m just sayin…YO!”
That’s more hip
Ummm…
I would, say the same thing..
got it.
i do a lot of things to be hip, but saying “yo” isn’t one of them.
There’s something about this post next to the Limbaugh salary post that makes me a little sick to my stomach. I am grateful that I was born here where pursuing God in freedom was easy, but the complacency and ethnocentrism of many Americans really bugs me. Maybe that’s the problem I have with the whole God Bless America thing.
Matthew 5:1-11
1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
3″Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11″Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Looking in Scriptures Christ’s perspective on “blessed” is in direct contradiction to the American (commercial) dream
And then you’ve got a guy like Limbaugh, in a free market, making enough money to provide clean water to the world? Again, sick to my stomach.
found your blog in a somewhat round-a-bout fashion, but was intrigued by this post. i have been doing some study in this area of america and christianity and thought i may throw out some sources to further this conversation for you. not sure if you have heard of john yoder or stanley hauerwas, but they would be some good minds to include in this conversation. hauerwas has an essay “a christian critique of christian america” that raises some very interesting points.
personally, i chose not to celebrate the fourth of july, this year being the first of my twenty-four year run here on earth, because more and more i am finding its theologically a scandal. i believe it is in and through the community of believers, church, that God desires to work his plan of redemption. now, the actions of the powers that be (i.e. america) may occasionally align with the work of redemption, but they are not the primary community through whom God works. i think the church, disciples of christ, have to come to rely heavily on the political system and with habits that are hard to break, the church has given a kind of allegiance to the nation-state and compromised its witness. i am not trying to advocate for a withdrawl of Christians from politics and culture. i think “we can use the machinery of democracy for our own and our neighbor’s advantage. But we should not, thereby, be lulled into believing that ‘we the people’ are thereby governing ourselves. Democracy is still government by the elite, though it may be less oppressive since it uses language in its justification that provides ways to mitigate oppressiveness. But that does not make democracy, from a Christian point of view, different in kind from states of another form” (hauerwas).
Also, in multiple conversations and other blogs i hear people say they are thankful for the freedoms this country provides, and i have to admit that I enjoy those freedoms as well. But I am often haunted by the thought of “at whose expense do i appreciate these freedoms?”
just some incomplete thoughts.
t
glad you found me travis.
i can see your point, but let me say ask these questions:
1.what is the point of not celebrating 4th of July?
2.how do you not celebrate it?
3.if you cannot celebrate it in good faith, then what is the point of living here?
1. what is the point of not celebrating fourth of july?
the reasons i decided not to celebrate the fourth of july were to remove myself from the routine i have been a part of for the past twenty three years, to take a look at the reasons for which the people around me were celebrating, and to contemplate the question “what is the point of christians celebrating the fourth of july”. i took a look at the reson for the fourth of july: a federal holiday commemorating the adoption of the declaration of independence and a celebration of the history, government, and traditions of the United States. i think the tendency in this celebration is to promote america/democracy as intrinsicly “good”, when i am not convinced that is the case. the entire day i had the story of king solomon running through my head (1 Kings 11). the son of king david, solomon knew the lord, but he began to make alliances with other nations when the lord had commanded “you shall not…for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods”. solomon’s heart was compromised. is my taking part in raising up america a way of making an alliance? do i compromise my faithfulness by pursuing the “gods” of america (i.e. consumerism, safety, my “rights”, control)?
i think that as christians we can be thankful for the places in which american history, government, and traditions have aligned in some shape or form with the working of God’s redemptive story, but i am not convinced that we should particpate in the praise of this nation-state. the point of not celebrating the fourth of july is to raise questions and to challenge the common acceptance of a pagan holiday by the community of believers.
2. how did i not celebrate?
well, it was interesting as i was on a mission trip with our high school youth group here in seattle. one of the organizations we were working with invited us to come watch the fireworks over elliott bay from their location that has a stellar view of the bay. so, my not celebrating the fourth of july took the form of raising the questions i have in my own mind/heart. having coversations. listening to other interpretations. and trying to interpret further what my role as a christian is in this nationalistic celebration.
3. why live here?
i am not advocating for christian abandonment of america. i live here because this is where God has led me. this is my place of ministry.