Crowder wrote about this a while back, very interesting: http://www.davidcrowderband.com/bios/david/david/sacred.html

Here is what I find interesting about churches using “secular” songs in their services. For a long time you would never hear a song from the radio in church. Then one church decided that they would start to do “special” music featuring a song from the radio. From there, tons of churches started to use “secular” music to talk about the sermon, an idea, or a thought. Its almost become a mainstay in churches today.

Honestly I could care less. Sometimes it seems a little much and even lame, sometimes it is really cool.

But the sacred/secular divide seems to be more of an argument then a reality. There is no separation for me. Truth is truth. Just because it is on a certain radio station doesn’t make it any more christian or non-christian.
I think our generation gets that, ut my parents generation has to have that separation that one or the other. Thats probably why CCM was/is so big.
The christian radio stations around here say it is music safe for the whole family. But in reality what makes it safe? Probably because they don’t cuss or talk about sex. I guess that is safe?

Personally I think it is an annoying argument that I do not think is a very big deal but is blown out of proportion and is another reason to hassle your local worship leader.

My 2 cents

I’ve always hated the idea of a genre; as a psychology student in college, I learned that people can’t help but classify and put things into boxes. No matter how open they are to new ideas, it’s a fundamental reality that the brain will do what it will do, with or without our permission, and one of those things that’s been an evolutionary advantage throughout our history is classifying things. I still hate it!

One of those things I hate classifying is “worship”. I think, clearly, going to a church and overtly offering yourself in complete surrender to God, is worship. I think that God made us wonderfully, so going throughout your day, doing your work and being yourself is an act of worship. There’s a particular verse that’s just outside my consciousness right now (lay off me, I’m Catholic!) that suggests this idea, but it’s also intuitive. God made me a guy who likes to write songs and express myself through the gift of music that he gave to the humans, so when I do, no matter what I’m writing about, just living my life as He intended is an act of worship.

The implication is that there are tons of people out there, doing what they love with no thought whatsoever of God. I love the idea that God is bigger than our small minds and ideas. They don’t see God moving in their lives, as they work joyfully and love their families, but that doesn’t mean He isn’t. They don’t see themselves as worshipers, but they can’t help it! By their very nature, they’re glorifying God.

Now, that’s also a dangerous statement because if not read carefully, it could lead to bad theology. To clarify, there are also tons of people out there who are miserable. I’d argue that it’s because they aren’t living as God intended, and that’s devastating to the soul, whether or not you know God. Sin. Sex. Drugs especially. Anger. Boredom. That’s not worship, and you can tell because they aren’t doing what they love, they’re doing what they think they have to be doing, and suffering from all kinds of psychological problems because of it. That’s certainly not worship.

So I guess, in effect, I strongly agree with Liz. I guess that was the point? As to whether or not I’ve ever used a “secular” song in a “worship setting” (both terms which, I’m sure you can now understand, drive me nuts), nope. Not that I never would, but I think I fear what you fear, that people will, on some level, just not accept it and it will become a huge distraction. It’s hard-wired into our brains to make judgments and to categorize, so as much as I dislike it, it’s automatic and unavoidable that people will have the “this song doesn’t belong here!” thought, no matter how briefly or unconsciously, and I’d rather not introduce more distractions. The big exception would be if I felt that my fellow worshipers were starting to worship the songs we sing themselves instead of the God that those songs point towards, in which case some sort of jarring experience might be necessary to shake them up and make them think.

That’s a lot. Sorry! I get carried away.

I don’t really disagree with you Kyle, I just don’t see how using secular songs in worship is edifying or helpful for the Church. Is it another perspective? Well sure, but I don’t think that means it is a perspective we should be approaching God with in our worship together.

I guess I’m not sure what makes a song secular or sacred. As far as I can tell there is such a thing as music, and beauty and when taken in the right context and direction, I believe beauty always points us back to God.

Truth be told I reject the sacred/secular divide because I think it was a product of a modernistic mindset and not a Christian mindset. Jesus seems to spend much more time in “secular” venues than in “sacred” ones like the synagogue, that was always what the pharisees were complaining about “you are hanging out with these ‘sinners.’”

So, using a song that’s on the radio, or wasn’t written to be a worship song… It can be useful if it ultimately points towards Christ. If it’s just about playing a song because it’s cool and it was on the radio, it’s for the wrong reason. But don’t we do the same thing with worship songs – play it because it’s the cool song that’s getting circulation elsewhere?

FWIW the singer of Mumford & Sons’ parents are Vineyard church leaders too, don’t know if that changes your thoughts at all about the band.

I think we have to be careful we don’t call anything unusable by God. I believe the truth to be that God uses and ordains what He wills, sometimes to the confounding of our minds. (1 Cor 1.27)
‘The Book of Eli”, a good movie but not ‘sacred’ by any means, touched my brother-in-law who has always kept his heart untouchable to things of the church.
A man came to our church, heard a U2 song, and decided this was a church that was not blind to the rest of the world, came back and is now a Believer.
I think we need to be careful our motivation behind the songs we sing but to call anything off-limits is a mistake.

I’m thinking about Paul in Athens here. He used their own polytheist beliefs to ultimately present the reality of Christ’s historical death and resurrection. In doing so, however, he blew apart their polytheism and elevated Christ to a position higher than their world view. If we use the secular, we should make it clear that Christ transcends art. Art is never sacred in it’s own right, no matter how _religious_ it’s tone is. The idols in Athens were artistic, but Paul was provoked by them, not amazed. He was provoked because ultimately, the idols did not bring people closer to Christ, they separated them from Christ.

There’s a fine line between using the secular to show the sacred, and excusing the wholesale enjoyment godless art by stating that it has the potential to be God honoring. Paul used the idols, but he did not enjoy them. There’s a huge difference. Also, he was evangelizing, not teaching those within the church. Personally, when I hear a pastor using secular references within church, as though they are sacred, to an audience that is assumed to be Christian, I’m invited to invest my time, money and heart into things that do not glorify God, with the assumption that I can find truth there. My heart desires truth, and though truth can be found in secular sources, our only _real_ source of truth is the Bible. Plain and simple.

Seems odd to me when a pastor knows so much about the secular world that he can always quote the top 10 indie-rock songs. It just seems like an excuse, and I’m not sure I’m a huge fan of it.

Related sources:
http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/2617_do_you_glorify_god_in_your_movie_watching/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+DGBlog+(DG+Blog)

You have a great point about using a secular song and suddenly everyone is not thinking about God, but how cool the band is, or their church is for playing this song.

I think it depends though. A secular song can make the exact point we are trying to convey. It can suddenly make people see the song in a new light. Maybe everytime they hear that song from now on they will be reminded of that moment.

My fear is the original intentions of a song may taint anything the church tries to do with it. I also think changing lyrics to suit is pretty lame, or at least I have not seen this done without the cringe factor.